Topic: *** The Truth About Haven Spas Part 1 *** (1 of 25),
From: SpaBuyer2002
Date: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 06:29 PM

Hi Folks,

As a new spa buyer I came to this forum at about the time the “21 Reasons I would never by a Haven/Phoenix spa” was started and was horrified by James Arjuna’s response to an intelligently written post. So I did some research as suggested in that thread , and some more research that I thought I would post at the top of this forum. This post contains several parts because of the numerous posts that I thought I would bring together to tell the truth about James Arjuna and his Haven/Phoenix spa scam. This really isn’t my post but the compilation of many peoples posts and opinions. As a new spa buyer I thought it a good idea to bring this information together in one spot so that all new spa buyers can see what a con artist James Arjuna is and not be scamed by this character. Having been taken by a con artist once for a vacation package I have learned to do my research very carefully, and to those people who have unfortunately bought Haven spas all I can say is I’m sorry but you didn’t do your research, and when you get out of the denial stage and enter into the anger stage I hope you will do something about this con artist James Arjuna just as I did about the guy who sold me the vacation package. I encourage other to research and respond to this post and lets really get the truth out about James Arjuna and his Haven Spa Scam. As the good lawyer said in one of his post these are my opinions and mine alone on a public forum.

Topic: You have got to be Kidding!
Date: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 07:35 PM

Obviously James is trying to scare another person into buying one of his spas. Artesian is one of the best engineered spas on the planet. Check out their new web site solid shell with life time warranty using acrylic,resin, and rolled fiberglass. No diverters, therapy pumps at each therapy location so the best plumbing in the world far better then a Haven/Phoenix. It's really sad when someone has to use scare tactics and pseudo science in order to make a living. Particularly when he has only been in business for a few years and is dependent on a company that went bankrupt when they started to have to honor the warranty from customers whose spas had numerous problems and resurfaced as Phoneix spas. Using the old line I'm just trying to educate the consumer(ya right just like a used car salesman but with a pseudo engineering angle). You should see their poor excuse for a factory in California, they even build their spas outside the old broken down building. Sorry but I'm just getting tired of seeing James's comments every where from what forums he hasn't been banned from, and I don't like to see people taken in by a con man. I wish this forum would ban him too so the rest of us could get on with life.

Topic: You have got to be Kidding!
Date: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 06:46 PM

James the only sleazy person on this forum is you. Any who posts close to 1500 posts isn't trying to help people but to sell a product and actually shows your desperation. Imagine what would happen if you did get banned from this forum too. If you had even gone over to the Artesian web site you could have answered your own questions that you posed. Why don't you try doing some of your own research for a change. Do you really think that anyone is taking you seriously when most people who are in the business or serious buyers check out the fact that the people who own Phoenix spas declared bankruptcy under a different company because the spa shells they made were falling apart and instead of honoring their warranty, they went bankrupt and started up again as Phoenix spas. Now there is a site that you well know, that have posts of customers complaining about the fact that Phoenix isn't again honoring their warranty. They also have some very interesting pictures of that pathetic excuse for a factory where the world famous Haven spas are made. What is going to happen when they decide to go bankrupt again. My guess is that you will not be able to find another company stupid enough to let you slap your Haven label on one of their spas. In that case you will have to go bankrupt and all the current Haven owners will be SOL. I do hope you do use generic parts in the Haven because when you go under your customers will need to be able to service their spas. Oh and about sharing your knowledge, do the prospective customers a favor and save it. Maybe they will not be taken in by your pathetic sales pitch and actually look at reliable spas and company's and dealers. As for posting as anonymous I'm giving you a taste of your own medicine. Since you often post as anonymous to scare a customer away from a particular spa. What's the usual lines from you like its full foam so its inferior even though most spas in the Northeast are 99% full foam, or the shell will crack, give it a rest James. I will give you some credit your site does share some actual facts which are helpful to a perspective buyer. But when you have only been in business for a couple of years and hooked up with a sleazy company like phoenix who is going to take a chance on buying one of your spas? The only reason you make changes to the actual Phoenix spas is because they are so poorly designed to start with you have to be doing constant warranty repairs which means much less profit. James find yourself another profession, because people are quickly becoming wise to you. Maybe you should go back to repairing spas instead of playing the con man. Just an opinion but I bet I speak for a whole lot of people. Also isn't nice to know that when people do a search on this forum for Haven or Phoenix they will come across these posts!

Although I always found your older posts most revealing about the kind of character you really are. I would recommend people search out older posts on the spa fellow to understand James's true character. Also don't forget to search for the Erik episode. Regardless of what happened Erik was one of James's customers who James never dealt with properly.

Topic: You have got to be Kidding!
Date: Thursday, September 12, 2002 08:47 AM

Actually I would think that you are the consumer advocate and not Jim. Since you are telling the truth about Jim and his product.

I'm glad to see you didn't get sucked into one Jim's sales debates! Thank you very much for suggesting the Artesian spa's web site as an engineer I found their site very intriguing, for anyone interested here it is http://www.artesianspas.com. Also thank you for the suggestion about searching out the old posts under spa fellow aka spa specialist they were very revealing. We will not be considering a Haven or a Phoenix spa ever! You also forgot to mention how heavily slanted and moderated Jim's site http://www.xxxxxxx.com and forum are to his myopic view of the spa world and the only good spa is a Haven spa! We also vote to ban him from the site. It is very interesting what you find out when you use the more function on this forum. Geez 1500 posts tell me this guy isn't a salesman! We also found the site you mentioned for anyone else looking here is the site with pictures of the broken down factory where they make the world famous Haven spas!

Regards,

New spa buyers

Topic: *** The Truth About Haven Spas Part 2 ***
From: SpaBuyer2002
Date: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 06:32 PM

Topic: You have got to be Kidding!
Date: Thursday, September 12, 2002 07:23 PM

On 9/12/2002 8:47:17 AM, Anonymous wrote:

>We also found the
>site you mentioned for anyone
>else looking here is the site
>with pictures of the broken
>down factory where they make
>the world famous Haven spas!
>http://havenspas.tripod.com/index.html

WOW, that site was VERY revealing. It looks like they're building those spas in the OK CORRAL!! What sells me on the validity of that site was the legal page and especially the part where it states:

"... this is now the fourth server that this web site has been hosted on. The owner of the company selling the private labeled Haven line of spas continually states that this site has done nothing but help him sell more spas. Yet he has gone to great lengths to have it removed from three other "free web hosts"."

How could ANYONE buy a Haven after visiting that site!?!?

Topic: You have got to be Kidding!
Date: Friday, September 13, 2002 07:20 AM

Now that everyone has seen the pictures of the factory. For the million dollar question who can tell me why Phoenix is having so many problems with their spas. The answer is they are using a thermally sealed spa because it is cheap as well as putting in cheap small frame motors and flex tube plumbing so in a thermally sealed spa small frame motors will burn out quickly because of the heat build up and the flex tube plumbing isn't rigid enough to stay in place so leaks developed. Phoenix is back to the old game of build a cheap spa mark it up ignore the complaints and then go bankrupt. Can anyone say Enron? The reason James talks so much about the motors and plumbing in his spas either he or someone else informed him of the issues and when your on a shoestring budget because your a family run business you can not afford to do much warranty repair work. So he was smart enough to upgrade the motors and use PVC piping. Why Pvc piping because it is more rigid so you will have less leaks. Most spas that are made today are full foam because scientific studies actually shows the insulating factor of full foam and because it does hold the plumbing more rigid so less chance of leaks. In fact in the Northeast L.A. and CAL offer full foam as an extra cost option and their dealers strongly recommend it. Ya I know CAL is a bad spa to get serviced right now most dealers in the Northeast have dropped them because of the warranty issues mentioned on this board and else where but I'm just using them as an example. Using full foam to insulate and make the plumbing more rigid and less likly to leak is a solid engineering concept but using full foam as a structural support isn't a very good idea and James is correct in pointing that out about Hotspring and D1. James's sales gimmick is the thermal insulation angle which doesn't hold much water and he has no choice but to continue to use it if he wants to sell his spas because Phoenix is building them that way and James is at the mercy of Phoenix or else he would just have them ship him the shells and build the spas himself. If he isn't doing that and he was as dedicated as he claims he would be doing just that building his own spas using someone else's shells. But now he has backed himself into a corner with what Phoenix is selling and the thermo seal concept. Ever try using a thero sealed spa in the summer the water doesn't get much cooler then 101 degrees. I personally prefer a little cooler water in the summer which you can't get with a thermaly sealed spa. Also just to set the record straight most heat is lost from the top of the spa not its sides so if you want to make sure you have a well insulated spa look at the cover construction. Two more points who can tell me why James's heaters will need replacing in a couple of years? Because they are generic heaters and not specialy designed heaters used in most major brands and in a generic heater the water has to move through the coil. Also why do think that James added a 24 circulation pump to his super custom Fallsburg so he can compete with the larger spa companies that have been doing it for years. Phoenix will not being doing that because they have no interest in making a quality product only making a quick buck and getting out probably for the final time. Again when that happens where do you thing that leaves James and his wonderful Haven customers. Basic spa design isn't rocket science so don't let people like James suck you in with their pseudo engineering sales pitch. With this post I will leave this topic alone. But I just wanted people to know the truth and judge for them selves because spending 4-12k dollars, which is a lot of money to most people, and people deserve to get a quality product.

Topic: *****CONSUMER WARNINGS*************
Date: Monday, September 16, 2002 04:30 PM

I'll ask you again Jim,

You keep claiming that Ken and Doc build death traps but you never post any numbers on injuries or deaths! How come Jim? How many people have been hurt or killed in Ken's or Doc's spas Jim? And remember Jim numbers only!!!! Don't go off with your normal BS here Jim.

Just numbers!!

Topic: *** The Truth About Haven Spas Part 3 ***
From: SpaBuyer2002
Date: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 06:34 PM

Topic: 21 Reasons Why I Would Never Buy a Haven/Phoenix Spa
Date: Monday, September 16, 2002 02:25 PM

Hi Folks,

As a person who has found these forums useful and having been on a 5 month journey of finding a new spa to replace my old 10 year old spa I thought I would share some of my thoughts and feelings as an engineer with graduate degrees from MIT in Electrical Engineering and Applied Physics. I have been following the thread titled " You have Got to be kidding!" to be very interesting which I would suggest everyone read first. In response to this thread here are the reasons why I would personally never buy a Haven/Phoenix spa. I can only hope this helps out someone and they understand the logic involved and why I agree with originator of the above mentioned thread, about Mr. Arjuna being nothing more than a desperate salesman.

1) As one person mentioned in the thread check Mr. Arjuna's old posts. In researching the old posts you can truly see his true character as a person who will say or doing anything to sell his spas and as Angeloftruth recently pointed out in the thread his story isn't consistent and varies constantly.

2) In his posts he uses the tactic of trying to scare customers by saying usually one of the following things.

a. The spa is full foam and will freeze if GFI fails and your away.

b. The shell will crack.

c. Full foam costs a fortune to fix a leak.

d. The plumbing is bad and users diverter valves.

e. I have never heard good things about that spa.

The reality of the situation is as follows. All major spa companies use full foam because it has solid science behind it and is proven in the field. In a quick search of over 78 engineering and physics databases I could only find one article back in 1978 at Cal Tech that did a study of electrical motors in a thermal enclosure. Bottom-line this is like comparing apples to oranges and as some in the original thread mentioned it is pseudo science. Use your common sense if you were building a house and one contractor came to you and said I'm going to put a thin piece of foil on the inside of your walls instead of 6 inches of installation would you let him? You would tell him where to go and rightfully so. During my search of the engineering databases there are many articles supporting the use of full foam as an insulating, soundproofing, and to some extent as an adjutant structural support. I live up in the Northeast and my old spa is full foam 10 years old and never froze once nor leaked. Talking with spa repair folk in the Northeast a spa freezing is a rare occurrence a maybe 1 in 4000 shot, so you should not make this a consideration in purchasing a spa. Even more interesting was the spa that froze that he had worked on was an L.A. with the thermal design and the customer hadn't opted for the full foam option. Also when asked about full foam leaks most spa techs told me it was easy to fix and about a $500 job but it also was a rare occurrence on any major brand. The only shell problems I have heard about either by friends or spa techs mostly involved Hotsprings or D1 and those were mostly after they were 7 or more years old. As an engineer I happen to agree that using foam as a structural support is a bad idea, which is why I eliminated Hotspring and D1 off my list. Particularly D1 if you read their warranty you have to send the spa back starting at year 7 if there is a structural problem with the shell. Also having had a spa for 10 years I can tell you they are like cars. Plan on having to fix them on occasion because parts do were out just like in cars.

3) Mr. Arjuna in his own posts admits he isn't an engineer with any advanced degrees and his background is one of a electrician and a spa tech. Given that I wouldn't want him designing any spa I put my hard earned money into. He apparently feels that he knows more than the multi million-dollar spa companies who keep a staff of engineers to develop and over see the manufacturing of their spas. How logical is this?

4) Most large spa companies have designed special heaters, pumps etc and have many patents and made major develops has Mr. Arjuna done any of these things? Does he have a single patent or major breakthrough in his name? The answer is NO.

5) As someone in the thread mentioned Mr. Arjuna uses generic parts, and his posts concur, including a heater. Most large spa companies have specially designed heaters because they don't want to be replacing them under warranty and they want them to last. In the 10 years that I have had my old spa I had to replace the heater 3 times because it was a generic heater and the coil was exposed to the water.

6) After looking over the Phoenix information I can vouch for it being a cheap design and the pictures of the factory do not make me want to be buying from them anytime in the future.

7) As Mr. Arjuna says in his post he is a family run company. This translates to a company with little financial backing behind him. So this means he can be out of business at anytime and with only a couple of years in the business I would not be putting my hard earned money into a spa that I can't see over the internet.

8) In looking over the old posts in the archives Mr. Arjuna doesn't really talk about spa design he uses that as an excuse to start up his sales banter. So no I won't be getting into a spa engineering design discussion with you Mr. Arjuna just so you can try another sales pitch. Besides as a professional engineer I find it insulting that you can even consider yourself at my level without a single advanced degree to your credit. I'm not wasting my time and I'm sure no other professional engineer is as well. That is the real reason why people are not entering into debates with you. A debate is between equals and you by your own admission don't qualify.

9) If the person who started this post is right about the people owning Phoenix going bankrupt before, than its highly probable they will do the same thing again and is indicated, by all the people on the forums complaining about problems and Phoenix not honoring their warranty. This also would mean as Haven Customer you would be left high and dry because Mr. Arjuna would also be forced to go bankrupt.

10) Mr Arjuna apparently thinks that all the major spa companies are out to get him. How logical is this? Multi million dollar companies that have teams of engineers and patents and that are selling thousands of spas are worried about a small family run business by a electrician/spa repair guy. If this isn't paranoid I don't know what is! This would cause me to question Mr. Arjuna's mental stability.

11) How logical is it be buying a 3-14k spa over the Internet from a person who promises to service you where ever you live? I don't know about the other readers, but I want a local dealer that I can go to deal with.

12) As someone pointed out Mr. Arjuna has placed close to 1500 posts on this board alone. This indicates to me personally that his motive is purely to direct people over to his site in the hopes of making a sale. Not a good sign of a legitimate person.

13) He accuses Dr. Spa of building death traps. I find this disgusting and unprofessional. Dr. Spa has done nothing but help numerous people on his forum. This alone would make me question Mr. Arjuna's integrity and mental state.

14) The fact the Mr. Arjuna admits to being banned from forums is not a good indicator either. You have to do some pretty bad things to banned from a forum.

15) If you do read Mr. Arjuna's web site while he does have some simple engineering concepts which he uses as a sales pitch, it is heavily slanted towards the Haven/Phoenix spa so it isn't an independent source of information as claimed.

16) I agree with the person in thread that stated if Mr. Arjuna was so dedicated he would be building his own spas instead of making minor modifications to the poorly designed Phoenix spas.

17) Mr. Arjuna is very adapt at taking a particular theme and using at as a sales pitch. His latest one is the ANSI standard. What he fails to tell everyone just like in the IEEE standards committee various companies come together and agree on a certain specification, how that specification is interpreted and implemented is up to the particular company involved. In other words all major spa companies follow ANSI standards.

18) On the specification for the Fallsburg http://www.spaspecialist.com/falls.html it rates the horsepower of the Fallsburg as 5BHP or brake horse power. Brake horsepower happens as the motor starts up and lasts less than a second. What needs to be considered is continuous horsepower not brake horse power. Talking about brake horsepower is a way of deceiving the customer away from the actual horsepower rating. Talking with a couple of hydro engineers before I began my spa journey they advised me to sure that there are no more than 5 jets per 1 continuous horse power for maximum therapy. So again in Mr. Arjuna's own site we have deliberate deception going on. If we make the assumption that his pumps are really 3HP continuous than with 42 jets and 2 pumps we can see that the Fallsburg would fail the test of providing good therapy, since the rule would only allow for 30 jets max this would put him 12 over the limit. This rule can also be applied to other spa brands.

19) Again if you look at the specifications for the Fallsburg it is only using two filters. If we assume for the moment that we get a super custom Fallsburg with a 24 hour circulating pump so we can compete with larger spa manufactures than that leaves a serious problem with filtration since each pump would need a separate filter. In other words 3 pumps 3 filters if you want continuous filtration particularly when you're in the spa. This means that Mr. Arjunas spas have bypass the filtration when the therapy pumps are on, or in other words when you need the filtration the most. Not a good thing in my opinion. Most major spa manufactures would never bypass the filtration.

20) In Mr. Arjuna's older posts talking about Erik he used terms and language that I as a customer would not like to be used in reference to myself. The fact that anyone would talk that way about a customer is totally unprofessional. Regardless of what happened I have to believe there is some truth to Erik's experience with Mr. Arjuna and you never, ever talk about a customer the way Mr. Arjuna talks about Erik.

21) The fact that someone took the time to start up the Tripod web sight as a warning to other people should cause a little red light to light up about Mr. Arjuna and the fact he tried to get it shut down doesn't help the situation.

Anyway I think that I have stated my reasons clearly why I personally would never buy a Haven/Phoenix spa. What spa did I end up buying? Well after the person who started this thread led me to the Artesian web sight. I was impressed with what I saw and went to my local Artesian dealer and was even more impressed with professionalism and engineering knowledge of the dealer. The dealer has been in business for 20 years. We literally took a Piper Glen apart so I could see and understand the engineering involved. Then we put it back together and my wife and I wet tested it. They also have the best warranty that I have seen so far including a lifetime shell warranty, which isn't pro-rated, and I have looked at 10 different spas to date. Artesian has raised the bar for other spa companies with their new Directflo pumps at each therapy seat. What this means is that instead of going from one the main therapy pumps to 2 or more seats via plumbing and manifolds, the pump is directly attached to the manifold of the therapy seat giving it incredible therapy. Also because of the new motor design you can adjust the intensity of the massage to your liking directly on the motor without diverter valves. This is an incredible break through for the spa industry and will leave a lot of competition in the dust including Haven/Phoenix spas, although pretty much everyone else does in my opinion anyway. So yes I bought an Artesian Piper Glen this weekend and no I would never consider buying Haven spa for reasons cited above.

Topic: Continuitn the Rebuttal with the phoney engineer.
From: Spa Fellow
Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 08:59 PM

The problem for the readers is that this guy is not an engineer and he is not polite. If you find this offensive, then wait until doc goes to prison. To me and my associates, there is nothing worse that some fool who is bringing more negativity to the spa industry by producing more statistics for the US Government Consumer Products Safety Commission.

I am actually going to get out of the sales all together and form a new institute dedicated to getting rid of dangerous and poorly designed Spas and Hot Tubs.

I really despise imposters. If you readers are so gullable as to believe this guy is an engineer, then well I have some land to sell you in Florida. Underwater.

If you don't believe me, it is your loss. You need to understand the level of ignorance in the spa industry and the danger associated with it, both physical but also in rip off spas being pawned off on ignorant folks like you.

God Help you, if you don't understand. This guy IMPOSTER is a hot tub professional with a lot of lies.

James Arjuna

Topic: *** The Truth About Haven Spas Part 4 ***
From: SpaBuyer2002
Date: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 06:35 PM

Topic: Continuitn the Rebuttal with the phoney engineer. Translated!
Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 09:34 PM

Quotes from James Arjuna. Translated by one that understands him and his nature all too well.

"The problem for the readers is that I am not an engineer and I am not polite. If you find this offensive, then wait until I goes off to prison for a longer time."

I am actually going to get out of the sales all together and form a new institute dedicated to getting rid of dangerous and poorly designed Spas and Hot Tubs. I'll start with the most dangerous of all which is Haven. That'll teach me!

I really despise imposters like me. If you readers are so gullable as to believe I am qualified as an engineer, then well I have some land to sell you in Florida. Underwater.

If you don't believe me, it is your loss. Of course I lie so much I can't blame you. You need to understand the level of ignorance in the spa industry and the danger associated with it, both physical but also in rip off spas being pawned off on ignorant folks like you. The reason I call you all ignorant is because I can understand being ignorant. I have been ignorant for over 50 years now. I will continue to be and I excel at it. Nobody is ignoranter than me.

God Help you, if you don't understand. I am a hot tub professional with a lot of lies.

James Arjuna"

Here we see how James Arjuna likes to play head games with people.

Topic: I see that I have touched a nerve with you Dave!
From: Spa Fellow
Date: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 12:19 AM

That was really funny, and I mean the best work your anger has done in a while.

I am actually starting a book that shows many of these posts from the professionals on this board and others.

I got some great posts off the Bravenet lately. Man that was fun to see that sleazy guy squirm until 3 am, then get back up at 6.

I had his message board so messed up, I though he was going to have a heart attack.

Man that was funny. What an utter idiot that guy is.

Sandy and I get a lot of laughs out of these fools.

James Arjuna

Notice how James Arjuna won’t talk to any other engineers other then over at his phoney forum where he controls all the information and edits posts, and puts up fake posts to propagate his Haven spa scam.

Topic: Read your web site today, James

Date: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 11:38 AM

Can you answer engineering questions here regarding your designs? Would it be better if I asked directly to the engineers that design the various parts of your portable spas?

I would rather use an unregulated forum than one under a biased control. Please do not take this the wrong way. I simply like this format here better than yours and I like seeing instant results.

V�z�p�t�stan - hydraulic architecture

Topic: *** The Truth About Haven Spas Part 5***
From: SpaBuyer2002
Date: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 06:36 PM

Topic: *** WARNING HAVEN SPA SCAM ***
From: JohnD920
Date: Friday, September 20, 2002 07:45 PM

Hello Fellow Spa Owners and Buyers,

First off as a lawyer I need to say that this is a public forum and the opinions expressed are strictly mine and an exercise of my right to free speech. I came to this forum because I'm look for information on different spa brands and I found some threads that really pissed me off, and I felt I had a duty to warn the good people on this forum about a situation that is very clear to me. I know I'm new to this forum but after reading the thread "21 Reasons I Would Never Buy a Haven/Phoenix Spa" and the thread "You have got to be Kidding" as well as doing the research that the author of 21 Reasons suggested I'm fully convinced as an ex assistant distract attorney with 12 years experience before going into a private practice, that James Arjuna is nothing more than a con artist. The only reason I'm writing this post, is to give people my opinion based on my experiences and to warn people of this fact because con artists make me very angry! I have seen good honest people swindled by some excellent con artists and sent a lot to prison, hopefully someone will also send James Arjuna to prison for his Internet Haven SPA scam. To those people who have unfortunately been James Arjuna's marks and bought his spas you have my condolences I would recommend that you contract your local Attorney Generals office or police department and report this scam. Now lets get down to some basic reasoning. One of the signs of a good con artist is he/she will put out the bait with just enough truth to get the mark hooked so they can be bilked out of their money. This is clearly demonstrated in the James Arjuna’s web site where basic engineering knowledge is posted as noted in point 15 of the 21 reason thread. Next you will notice the way he reacted to the 21 reason thread which is typical of a con artist that is exposed in public. Next he fully admits that he enjoys playing games with people's heads in the thread, which is typical for a con artist. He then claims to be trying to educate the public and that when people don't believe his posts he passes it off as a humorous game to get people to think, another ploy of the con man. Next James Arjuna tries very desperately to make people believe that the author of 21 Reasons isn't a real engineer and that he James Arjuna is the only real expert in the spa industry, also a typical ploy of the con artist. I will start using the initials JA instead of James Arjuna since I'm not the greatest typist in the world. JA seems to want impress upon readers that he has 5 whole text books, my son who is going to a university for his electrical engineering degree and he has 26 text books for his first year. As to the fact the engineer has access to 78 databases it is very feasible and would be very surprising if he didn't. As a lawyer with a large law firm I have access to 14 different databases and yes they are expensive but it is the cost of doing business. An engineer with these guys' credentials would be working for a major corporation that would gladly pay for his access to the databases. The fact that JA points out that they are expensive also proves how poorly funded his family run scam is. Also since JA is an uneducated man by his own admission he couldn't figure out that the originator when he mentioned advanced degrees was talking about either, a double masters, double Doctorate or a masters and a doctorate. Most con artists are usually uneducated and think they are superior to people who work long and hard at an education. Unfortunately a lot of highly educated people lack common sense, which also makes them potential marks for this Internet Haven SPA scam of JA's. In JA's rebuttal he validates points 1, 18 and 19 by changing his story about the horsepower rating from brake horsepower to continuous horsepower of his pumps and all of a sudden we are using 4 filters when his web site specifies 2 filters and uses BHP ratings. So like a typical con artist he changes his story to fool the mark. In regards to point 1 a search by anyone on the "spa fellow" posts will show a very sleazy and mentally disturbed individual. As to point 2 in the post the author points out JA uses scare tactics on his potential marks, which is also typical behavior, since a scared mark will part with money faster. Point 8 of the post is verified by a search of JA posts when he only uses spa design as a sales pitch. Point 10 is confirmed by JA when he claims that he was contacted by the son of the family that own Hot Springs to make the mark think that he is a threat to a major corporation because his poorly funded family owned company can build a superior product. Again common sense needs to come into the picture here and also mental stability. Billion dollar corporations own some of these large spa companies. Common sense says these companies have lots of engineers and some of them would have changed the designs if JA was even remotely correct in any of his theories/sales gimmicks. You will also notice as I did that JA constantly keeps referring to this engineer by different names of people that he obviously is afraid that are out to expose him for the con artist he is. As one person in the 21 reason thread said he is obviously a very paranoid individual which most con artists are since they are always afraid of being exposed. As a potential buyer of a spa I agree with point 10 no one should be buying a spa over the Internet. The Internet is prime territory for these con artists and obviously JA is one of these people and preying upon innocent people. To point 12 a con artist working over the Internet would have to post a great deal in order to find marks and also to try and keep people from exposing him. This explains the amount of time he spends on the Internet and his reference to saving posts and files on people so that he doesn't trip himself up to much, but as the original author pointed out his stories are not consistant which means he is a liar. To point 20 the Erik saga everyone should use the search function of this forum to see JA posts in this regards. Basically Erik was a lot smarter than most of JA marks and JA had try and do damage control, which he failed at miserably. During one of my searches of JA posts he states that he is careful who he sells to make part of the Haven spa family. What this translates to is I need be sure that your naive enough to believe what I tell so you don’t make trouble for me later on. To point 21 no one goes to the expense and trouble of setting up a web site unless they are really trying to expose someone for the con artist they are. Everyone should visit the Tripod web site and see the pictures for the Phoenix/Haven Spa factory for themselves. As someone said a picture is worth a thousand words! You will also notice in the 21 reason thread that another engineer challenged him to a debate on this forum which he ignored, this is because he can't control or edit the information in this forum, so he would be exposed for the con artist he is. This is also the reason why I have taken the time to write this post because con artists like James Arjuna anger me and prey upon innocent people to bilk them out of their hard earned money. Please people read this and pay heed to what I'm saying, I prosecuted many con artists and I know one when I see one. As my mother used to say if it looks like a skunk and smells like a skunk it is a skunk! These are my expert opinions and I can only hope you heed them. Hopefully they help some people from becoming the marks of this con artist James Arjuna. Trust nothing he says and ignore his posts! There is no truth to this man and to think that this man even remotely believes in God is a joke or he wouldn't be preying upon people with his Internet Haven SPA scam. In this day and age with terrorist threats we Americans need to ban together and what James Arjuna is perpetrating with his Haven Spa Scam in Un-American in this and day and age, it should anger a lot of people like it does me. Now since this engineer bought an Artesian spa I will be putting them on my list of spas to consider. I also want to thank that engineer for a very thoughtful and reasonable post. He has given any new spa buyer some good concepts to consider when looking for a spa. Also I'm sure JA will be sending in his rebuttal to this post but it is nothing more than I would expect from a clearly mentally disturbed con artist who has been publicly exposed. I’m also sure he will try to convince the people of this forum that I’m no lawyer just like he tried to convince people the author of 21 Reasons wasn’t an engineer when we call all clearly see his is as he claims by his post. He is also as well educated as he claims since he never responded to JA’s insults and barbs, if he had then I would have doubted his credentials. I will not be dignifying James Arjuna with a reply, since a low life like him is beneath me, and the honest American people on this forum. Besides Artesian I plan on looking at Hot Springs, Dimension 1, and Sundance. If anyone has any other useful suggestions for spa I would be glad to hear them. I pray that this post prevents people from being scamed by James Arjuna. Please believe me when I say he isn’t a consumer advocate he is only into consumer fraud.

Topic: *** The Truth About Haven Spas Part 6***
From: SpaBuyer2002
Date: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 06:37 PM

Talk about head games and being desperate because he has been banned from most boards read this!

Topic: **Pay more attention*****
From: Spa Fellow
Date: Saturday, September 21, 2002 11:05 PM

I think you missed a couple of strokes here.

The guy on the other message board was on The Bravenet message board. Check the date and time of the posts. That guy would selectively edit my posts about spa design, and remove them, while at the same time he professes to be all for the "freedom of speach". This guy is so cowardly that he will not reveal his name. Even Ken, Steve, Doc, Spa Tech and Dave are not that low, most of the time. I went over to his, Bravenet board and posted a ton of posts about what a two faced person he is and kept him up to 3 AM, then he got back up at 6 AM to keep up with my posting. I think he got the message? I don't like two faced people like that. I am as straight as an arrow when it comes to what I teach and my concern for consumers, who are totally at the mercy of these so called spa guys. I can't even log on to Doc's board, he now has all my IP's blocked. I have to go to my brother-in-laws home to even look at doc's board on an aol account. I heard that someone was on Doc's board, probably the same prankster that was on here. Was it funny?

James Arjuna

Topic: *** I love you Jim XXXXXXOOOOOO ***
Date: Saturday, September 21, 2002 01:11 PM

Jim,

Have you completely lost your mind? Do you really think that people are as stupid as you are? You do realize that there are ways to back track all the things you are posting "AS" and "ABOUT" Doc! You messed up big time here ol' Jimmy boy! I hope they put the trial on Court TV so I can actually watch your final demise live! Here is the only proof needed, a quote from your own post on your own site........

"Truly I am fine. I just gave that guy over on the other board a nightmare to deal with, because of his terrible and immoral behavior. That board is the pit vipers of the spa industry. "

NOW THIS WILL DEFINITELY MAKE A GOOD MOVIE JIM!!!!

Topic: *** Warning Haven Spa Scam ***
Date: Saturday, September 21, 2002 09:00 AM

Hi John,

Welcome to the board. Thanks for the very informative post about Jim. Your insights explain a lot of his behavior. Jim is stupid enough to think just because someone is new to the board that they can't figure out his scam. I guess that comes from not getting a real education. Well Jim when you have the 21 Reasons post right at the top, guess what its one of the first posts most new members see. Lets face it Jim you did an excellent job of helping this engineer expose you!

Oh and by the way Jim this guy is a lawyer so that means he is another highly educated person. I know its hard for you to understand but highly educated people tend to read a lot faster and figure things out faster then you! John you also want to check out Vita Spas. Keep away from the spas Jim recommends which are L.A.,Thermaspa,Catalina and Emerald. They are all using the Therma Pane sales gimmick which the engineer pointed out has no scientific studies to back it up. Besides if Jim is recommending them they have to be crap.

Topic: *** Warning Haven Spa Scam ***
Date: Saturday, September 21, 2002 09:16 AM

Jimbo you have really gone off the deep end today haven't you. With creating those ID's you have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt as the lawyer would say that you are a very mentally sick individual. He was right, he exposed you to the public and you went right off the deep end! You have to be the biggest dumb ass on the planet! You have proved what the engineer and lawyer said! Do you think anyone is going to believe a letter from a customer coming from you a con man! Man I hope someone throws your ass in jail soon

Topic: Haven Spas are Safe!!
From: Dmt123
Date: Saturday, September 21, 2002 11:07 PM

Jim, you can throw around whatever kind of acronyms you like ANSI, OSHA, BBB, MF, AA, etc. None of them will make my hot tub less enjoyable, or less inexpensive and trouble free to run. The heat coming out from the bottom of the tub is hot but not hot enough to burn my foot. You say I am angry because I did not buy from you. No, you are angry because I did not buy from you. I liked H.S. and I bought one and have not regretted it. Do I think everyone should buy one ? No not if they like another spa better. That is why people should wet test a spa before buying one. Something you down play because it's kind of hard to test a spa over the internet. Would you buy a car over the internet with out test driving it first just because the salesman said it was the best car out there ?

DMT

Topic: *** WHAT WE'VE NOTICED @ NPW***
Date: Saturday, September 21, 2002 03:49 PM

Just a bit more to add to the well thought text above.

Re: JA

Whenever backed into a corner the anger sets in. Distracts the subject and changes the focus of the potential buyers.

Re: JA

Whenever a story is told is involves, "a lady called (wrote) ......." never "a big strong guy called ......." tugging at your heart strings?

Re: JA

When trying to make a point regarding safety it is asked, "Would you want your wife and kids ...." not "Your father...." or another accepted figure of strength. .... tugging at your heart strings, again?

Re: JA

In order to gain sympathy, "You insulted my wife ...... you harmed my family ......" .... tugging at your heart strings one more time?

Re: JA

Progression from, "many doctors and engineers are our customers" to "MOST of our customers" to "80% of our customers" to "SMART engineers" (rather than dumb engineers?) for the hopes of tickling your egos. "Golly, I must be as smart as them so I better buy a haven spa!"

Re: JA

And finally "my brother, the engineer," has enhanced his career from "my brother, the 25 year engineer," to "my brother, the 40 year engineer," to "my brother, the 40 year DESIGN engineer," ........ has anyone figured how "the brother" (ALWAYS followed by 'engineer') has gained 15 years experience in the 2+ years that the posts have appeared here?

Re: JA (as a last straw)

The "Charlie Brown" method kicks in when things get desperate, "...... why is everybody always picking on me?" In the hopes that people will not be smart enough to review his history.

These are all traits of a very gifted con-man with access to a large audience.

Watch Dog

Topic: Jim A is pure DANGER
Date: Saturday, September 21, 2002 03:28 AM

Jim Arjuna is a scam. He's mentally unstable and should be looked at by a doctor. I've been following this man for over a year on numerous boards and what you're seeing here is standard Arjuna. As he becomes more desperate, he will show his uncontrolled anger. His scam is unraveling right in front of consumers eyes.

Could you possibly imagine purchasing a spa from him and having a problem? It will never be his fault, I guarantee you that! I agree with the good lawyer.... You hit the nail on the head my friend!

Topic: Jim is a good guy!
From: bjc358
Date: Saturday, September 21, 2002 12:49 PM

Jim,

"Truly I am fine. I just gave that guy over on the other board a nightmare to deal with, because of his terrible and immoral behavior. That board is the pit vipers of the spa industry. "

NOW THIS WILL DEFINITELY MAKE A GOOD MOVIE JIM!!!!

Topic: *** The Truth About Haven Spas Part 7***
From: SpaBuyer2002
Date: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 06:39 PM

From: JohnD920
Date: Thursday, September 26, 2002 07:30 AM

Hi Folks,

After I had written my opinion of the Haven Spa Scam my wife the oncologist physician came across the 21 Reason post on my desk that I had printed out and pointed out something very serious. In the 21 Reason post James Arjuna replies to this engineer as follows. "We use the latest greatest "no-fault" style of heater from Aquatemp (Patent # 5,978.550). It is embedded in epoxy and teflon, so it has no metal contact with water." My wife pointed out that Teflon is a carcagenic material that was banned about 15 years ago from being used in cook wear because of studies showing that it caused cancer. So if we can believe anything that James Arjuna says and if he is using Teflon coated heaters, than buying one of his spas, could not only be a sever error in judgment, but could be a cause for developing cancer down the road. Think about it, he is using a known carcagenic material {Teflon} which is heated and particles therefor get into the water where people are sitting with open pores so the skin will absorb this material into your bodies later causing cancer. Again this proves my point that people should seek out reputable spa companies and dealers with a brain trust of solid engineers and not fall for an uneducated con man making poorly designed cheap spas with potential lethal effects to your health. Again these are just my wife and my opinions but I wanted to bring what she said to the top to warn people of a potential health danger in regards to Haven Spas. I don't know if this would also apply to Phoenix spas but it may.

Topic: Haven Spa Safety Warning
From: JohnD920
Date: Thursday, September 26, 2002 05:29 PM

Interesting article Frank. I can only go by what my wife the oncologist said. In our house we have no non-stick pans in fact we use all All-Clad cook wear which is stainless steel and very expensive unfortunately! :( I talked with her again and I guess banned is to strong a word but she said that she has treated several patients over the years that she is convinced developed cancer because of using the old non-stick pans. That is just her professional opinion. Apparently she claims there are studies that show that when Teflon is heated and breaks apart it has caused cancer in labatory animals when fed to them. She seems to feel the same situation could develop with a Teflon coated heater that has direct contact with the water. Anyway I'm a lawyer not an engineer or a doctor I just thought I would pass this along since I would be concerned for anyone who already got suckered into buying a Haven spa. But as I said earlier its hard to tell what the truth is with as much lies as JA has told. He really went over the top with the phoney testominal letters and then with all the phoney ID's. I don't know about the rest of you, but I was confused until people more computer literate them me pointed out it was James Arjuna trying to misdirect attention from his Haven Spa Scam again. I also want to thank the people who gave us suggestions for looking at other spas. With my wifes perspective on the heater and Teflon it has made us ask a few more questions of dealers and spa companies. I guess everyone has to choose for themselves what they think the risk is, I just think it is unresponsible to be using a questionable material for a product that people are purchasing to make them healthier. For all we know JA may be using the cheap old metal heater the engineer was referring too. Anyway like I said I just wanted to warn people of a potential health hazard with Haven Spas based on my wife's opinion as an oncologist.

From: DawnR
Date: Sunday, September 29, 2002 05:07 PM

Pete the answer to your question is no. As I stated in another post this individual James Arjuna besides being a con artist is psychotic paranoid and a pathological liar.

He not only feels that the whole spa indusrty is out to get him, but he would also have his potential targets believe that as well, so that he can better rip their money off for a cheap poorly engineered spa.

He also seems to be particularly fearful and paranoid about certain individuals that he keeps bringing up in his posts. This individual is definetly mentally unstable and should seek help as soon as possible.

As I stated before as a potential spa buyer I would never buy a Haven/Phoenix spa nor would I believe a single word in any of James Arjuna's posts. As a psychologist I'm seriously thinking about using some of the sick material he has posted on this public forum and using it in a paper. I don't see how anyone can believe James Arjuna after searching and reading this forum. That last bit last weekend with all the phoney ID's was way over the top and just shows how sick this individual really is by the evidence of his own posts

Topic: ***HAVEN SPA SAFETY WARNING******
From: DawnR
Date: Sunday, September 29, 2002 07:05 PM

I forgot to add in keeping with the topic of this thread. I'm old enough to remember when the whole teflon non-stick pan reports became public and you couldn't find a non-stick pan in stores for almost a year before they came up with a safer formula. So yes I believe there may be truth to what the lawyer and his wife the oncologist posted. As a women who went through breast cancer I certainly don't want to take any chances with my health. And when an oncologist says that something is a potential cancer risk I would advise everyone to pay close attention, I certainly do. As the lawyer indicated it adds to the list of questions to ask a reputable dealer if the manufacturer is using a Teflon coated heater element, if they are then off the list they come! I also agree with the lawyer do your research and make sure that you are using a large reputable spa company that has well educated engineers on the payroll and don't buy anything from an Internet con artist who doesn't even hold a single degree like James Arjuna. So far in the list of spas I have explored non of the heater coils have been Teflon coated thankfully! A good dealer will put you in touch with engineers at the spa company if they can't answer your questions. As the good lawyer would say these are my opinions and mine alone.

Topic: The Whole Boring Jim Saga.
From: speedenator
Date: Saturday, April 21, 2001 04:04 AM

I had thought about posting a point-by-point rebuttal of your lies and half-truths Jim, but I figured I'd let the evidence speak for itself. http://members.home.net/speedenator/spa.html

I don't know why you laying down false accusations against me Jim, nor do I see why you continue to lie and post half-truths that aren't even consistent in your diatribes. I've done nothing at all to your family, nor even mentioned them. I suspect this is what happens when an honest man points out a dishonest and unprofessional businessman.

On 04/19/2001 11:46:41 PM, Spa Fellow wrote:

>As long as Erik is harassing
>my family, with his lies and
>web site, I must continue to
>post the truth about it.
>One of the things you don't
>know is the truth. 4/19/01

Topic: The Whole Boring Jim Drama Saga.
From: speedenator
Date: Sunday, April 22, 2001 06:01 AM

The simple fact is that after seven months of

letting me be, Jim's decided to take action and see about censoring me by sending mail to the people who hosted a journal stating my experience with him and his business. It's unclear to me why he waited, as he knew exactly where it was from day one. I guess he's suddenly decided that he has better things to do than try and run a business. Or perhaps he's just trying to drum up some publicity by attacking me?

Quite frankly, I'm a lot happier with my new ClearWater than with Jim's Super Custom Fallsburg, or whatever the hell it was I received. It really was a mediocre spa once you compare it to something good.

Topic: Please don't rehash this
From: finz
Date: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 10:15 AM

I dont think anyone wants this rehashed. Jim paints a picture that he is perfect, his spas are perfect, his installations are always flawless, and that any gripes anyone has are not his fault but solely the fault of an unreasonable customer.

I think the point of reposting it was to show that even though Jim would never admit it: he has had an unsatisfied customer, he can make mistakes (but only when he thinks he is wrong but is actually right), a spa he would sell could have a blemish (at least only after it is delivered to one of the many unreasonable customers he seems to attract frequently), living 1000 miles away from your dealer can be a problem (but not JA's fault since his unreasonable customer was a poor communicator).

So just like buying from anyone else here, or from any dealer across the country, sometimes things dont go right. I think all of the dealers here, except for JA, would admit things sometimes go wrong, regardless of whose fault it is.

No spa or dealer out there is perfect, no matter what the person selling it to you says. One persons trash will be anothers treasure (i.e. someone may not like a Hot Spring Spa but really enjoys a Dimension1 or vice versa). Good luck, wet test, and buyer beware.

Topic: 'We did nothing wrong! We did nothing wrong!' Just look!!
From: Angel of Truth
Date: Thursday, October 11, 2001 03:29 PM

Puddin' said, "We did nothing wrong!" and if you don't believe that just read the following:

(from the Eriks Spa Adventures Site:

http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/speed/spa.html )

Puddin's excuses are marked with $$H$$.

June 22, 2000. So when's it coming?

Jim says, "If all goes well, you should get your spa in about four weeks." Cue music, minor key.

$$H$$ Let’s see 6/22 plus 28 days equals ………..7/22! $$H$$

Aug. 26th, 2000. Here it is!

Bill called at 7:30 AM (yawn) and said he was getting some breakfast about 2 blocks away and would be there at 8. I call my buddy Ruben, and he arrives just after 8 as well.

$$H$$ Yep! See guys 4 weeks on the nose! Not Puddin’s fault at all!$$H$$

So, the rest of the day I play phone tag with Mary (Bruce's wife), Sandy (Jim's wife), Jim, and finally Bruce. Jim says Bruce was supposed to install it,

$$H$$ Nothing wrong here! Erik, can’t you see that Bruce is installing it? $$H$$

The redwood panel on the west side (where the pumps are) had a big gash in it and would need to be replaced. Also, the neck pillow was discolored and looked very used

$$H$$ Nothing wrong here! Erik, can’t you see that it’s supposed to be that way? You are insulting Puddin’s wifey, Mrs. Puddin’! Did you specifically request unbroken wood and NEW pillows? See I thought not!! $$H$$

…… ……. and how factors outside his control are causing it not to work right

$$H$$ Nothing wrong here! Erik, can’t you see that lil’ Puddin’ is out of control? $$H$$

Dave calls me. Says he's trying to find a technician. The one he normally uses is booked for two weeks, and the other one they use considers Seattle to be too far north. So he's checking around on Yahoo! to see what he can find. So he's going to be trusting some random technicians he found on the Web to fix my spa and make me a satisfied customer.

$$H$$ Nothing wrong here! Erik, did you tell haven in advance that their spa was going to be defective or broken? You are closer to the factory. You should have known! Not Puddin’s fault! $$H$$

I notice that there's this large control between the lounge and the hot-seat that seems to divert water to one or the other. A diverter valve? That can't be. One of Jim's big selling points is that this spa doesn't have any.

$$H$$ Nothing wrong here! Erik, Puddin’ had his fingers crossed when he said that so it’s not a lie! $$H$$

I return home to find a note on my door from Crystal Clear Spa & Pool Service in Edmonds, WA (about 30 min north of Seattle). Turns out they came by, but the door was locked and the gate to my back yard was closed. Gee, how surprising, considering I didn't know they were coming.

$$H$$ Nothing wrong here! Erik, everyone that buys a broken haven knows better than to leave home anymore! Are you mentally deranged or what? $$H$$

I get a message back from Jim saying it looks like Phoenix totally screwed up the plumbing in my spa, and that yes I had a diverter valve. He also didn't allow my post to go through to the message board. That's curious. Especially since a day or two before he had posted a message saying he doesn't censor anyone except for this one guy who kept spamming him. Hmm.

$$H$$ Nothing wrong here! Erik, did you say that you wanted the exact spa you ordered, the EXACT spa. See? All of Puddin’s smart engineer customers would have taken this almost functional, barely broken, incorrectly made spa and kissed his feet for the sheer privilege of owning a haven spa. Don’t you see that? $$H$$

Finally, towards the middle of October, some nice guys from Spa Mover come by and haul the spa, stairs, blanket, ozonator, chemicals, GFCI, and all the other sundries that Jim sent. I get a receipt, just in case the stuff doesn't make it from Spa Movers to Jim and he then takes issue with me.

$$H$$ Nothing wrong here! Erik, did you say that you did NOT want to store this almost functional, barely broken, incorrectly made spa? Did you say that you did not want to store it for another couple of months? If you cannot read the minds of the haven personal then you don’t deserve their almost functional, barely broken, incorrectly made spa at all! $$H$$

How's that Puddin'? Did I prove your point that "We did nothing wrong!" "We did nothing wrong!""We did nothing wrong!" You knbow Puddin' if you clench your fists and stomp your foot someone may believe you!

Helpful Angel of Truth

You're Welcome Puddin' Head (you're so cute when your face is red!)

Topic: *** The Truth About Haven Spas Part 8***
From: SpaBuyer2002
Date: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 06:39 PM

Topic: Welcome, Lisa . . . .
From: TPN
Date: Saturday, September 22, 2001 01:07 PM

I also was considering buying a Haven spa, but did not, for many of the same issues you mention, and mostly because of Jim himself. I would never knowingly want to deal with someone as irrational and unstable as he is. Of course, he calls everyone else that, but it's obvious from his posts what type of person he is . . . . not for me!!

He does provide comic relief though. Quite often I'll check out one of the message boards that Jim is not banned from (I believe there are only 2 he can post on). The things that he comes out with and his rational (or rather, lack thereof) is absolutely amazing.

Topic: Welcome, Lisa . . . .
From: Ghost
Date: Saturday, September 22, 2001 02:36 AM

"I am not in business for profit, but because I love spas."

You are such a lying piece of donkey dung. Not only can you not post a message without SPAMMING it with links to your OWN web site, you continuously START new threads pushing YOUR product and YOUR web site. You have NO friends or allies in the spa business, and are simply an arrogant, self serving, angry, evil, selfish disgrace to the spa and hot tub industry. You are in fact SO bad, I find myself ashamed that I'm even in the market for a spa

Topic: Welcome, Lisa . . . .
From: ajurista
Date: Saturday, September 22, 2001 08:20 AM

Lisa, I hope you continue to post your questions despite JA. He is simply incapable of taking constructive criticism, or even comprehending the point you are trying to make, so it's best just to ignore him. I tried politely telling him the same thing (that I would not consider buying from him because of his abrasiveness) several months ago, and I was on the receiving end of the same kind of harassment you're now experiencing (I even got quite a few unsolicited e-mails from him pursuing my business even after I told him I wasn't interested). Eventually, he began to honor at least *some* of my requests not to post in response to one of my threads as long as his name or products weren't mentioned.

I feel sorry for him. He's obviously got bigger problems that trying to convince you to buy his spa.

Topic: Welcome, Lisa . . . .
From: ajurista
Date: Sunday, September 23, 2001 09:28 AM

Isn't it funny how you are always the wronged party? Jim, I listened to plenty from you. Your information about spas was very helpful, until you started to bash other spa companies and board posters as inferior, deceitful, etc etc. As soon as I decided to buy from another company, you started getting nasty with me. Part of the reason I even decided to go with that other company was because of how you were treating other people on the board. Do you really think potential customers will see that kind of behavior and not think it could just as easily happen to them?

You can continue to try to convince yourself that you're a real stand-up guy, but when you keep calling people jerks (recent post), deceitful, ignorant, and every other host of insult, you have to expect a backlash. How many people have to tell you that your behavior is what puts them off before you *get it*? You just never will. You see Jim, the thing about constructive criticism is that *it contains criticism,* something you will never accept. Hey, it's your business. Run it any way you like. Just don't expect these boards to yield you any customers (or respect.)

Topic: Welcome, Lisa . . . .
From: TPN
Date: Saturday, September 22, 2001 02:02 PM

>Todd; I believe you are once again
>stepping beyond the bounds of being a
>decent person as usual.
>There is nothing like that in me at all.
>I am a caring and loving family man who
>loves my job.

No Jim, once again, you ARE right, there is nothing like that in you at all, it is just our lying eyes reading and misinterpreting your postings! You may very well (and probably do) love your job, but that does not make you good at it. In fact, as I said before, your interpersonal skills suck, and you yourself are the worst enemy of your company's success.

>If you take time and really read what I
>am presenting, you will find that the
>sleazy people like TPN. Who is banned
>from my message board for is rude and
>rotten behavior, are angry.

Now that's an intelligent statement . . ."If you take time and really read what I am presenting, you will find that the sleazy people like TPN. are angry." Where from your readings does it show that I am angry??

From my previous post;

"Beware, however, once you do challenge him, you'll become classified as mentally unstable, ignorant, uneducated, someone who has attacked his family & insulted his wife, so on & so forth (but it is entertaining as all hell). Have I left anything out Jim??"

Damned, I forgot sleazy, rotten and angry, but I did get ignorant!!!

>To take advice from some one as ignorant
>as Todd would be the dumbest thing a
>person could do.

No Jim, actually the dumbest (and most frustrating) thing a person could do is to try to deal intelligently with someone like you!

>He actually believes that you can't be
>truthful and be in business. That you
>have to take abuse from customers as
>part of being in business.

A classic example of a blatant lie from Jim. In ALL my past posts to him, I've ALWAYS maintained that you can (and should be) truthful. What he cannot understand is that in being truthful, you do not have to be rude, condescending, and nasty. No, you do not, nor should you take abuse from customers . . . on the other hand, you do not need to call them mental, ignorant, or evil.

>I am not in business for profit, but
>because I love spas.

Horsecrap (or as you say, bull pucky)! If that's the case, prove it . . . sell your spas for cost! That's the most ignorant comment you've made yet . . of course you're in it for profit; and profit is NOT a bad thing . . . unless you consider profit to be in the same category as that other bad word, "PRIDE" (why don't you elaborate on that little gem, for those who were not around to see it on the other board)

>For Lisa. It was you who took my
>generalized statements personally. Just
>because we don't want jerks for
>customers, does not make you a jerk.
>How did you stretch that far out from
>the topic.

Again, funny how you feel that she stretched that far from the topic . . . maybe it was how you wrote it instead of how she interpreted it??? Naw, couldn't be, Jim is never wrong, just ask him!

>If you feel you are like Erik, then God
>help you because you are destined for a
>rough go of it. I didn't think of you
>that way at all.

Where the hell are you getting this from? Where did she say she is like Erik?? Man, you are one f*cked up dude with some weird delusions! I think drugs and alcohol could actually help you . . . we all know you couldn't get much worse

The best thing you can do for your business is to get off these message boards and stop making a bigger ass of yourself than you've already done. You truly are Broomfield's village idiot!!

Topic: *** The Truth About Haven Spas Part 9***
From: SpaBuyer2002
Date: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 06:40 PM

Topic: Welcome, Lisa . . . .
From: Lisa H
Date: Monday, September 24, 2001 11:33 AM

“Yes, it is a really far stretch. Why do you think our customers praise us so much? They all know me and have spent time with me. All you know is a bunch of battles I do with these sleazy people.”

I’m going to respond once more, then let it go. It’s becoming clear you don’t want to see my point. I did not base my opinion of you on what other’s here said. I am aware there is competition in the spa business, and kept that in mind. My opinion is based on YOUR OWN WORDS, here and esp. in response to Erik. You could have refuted every word he said, if he is lying, and maintained a professional demeanor at the same time. You chose not to. And the one thing a salesman can do to lose my business is knock the competition. I’m not talking about things like telling me what your product does well, I’m talking about things like calling a competitor’s spa “Demented 1”.

“That is why I strongly recommend getting in touch with our customers.”

Again, I’m sure you have very satisfied customers. But I don’t chose to be one.

”Our customers rarely ever post on these message boards, because of the constant attacks by these sleazeballs.

If you wish to align yourself with that, I would certainly think about it, if I were you.”

Thank you for your concern. I didn’t realize I had to chose sides. That by offering you some feedback, I was aligning myself with “sleazeballs”.

Topic: A long response to JA's accusations
From: TPN
Date: Friday, September 27, 2002 04:15 PM

Although he's really not worth the effort, and though many of you are probably not interested (for those of you, sorry to waste your time), I would like to respond to a portion of a post from JA which will illuminate how ridiculous this guy really is, how he contradicts himself and "bends" the truth, & makes false statements.

On a post on this board titled "James, you seem to be driving more people away from this board", JA states;

"The guy TPN will be called the "diplomat", in my book. He spent hundreds of posts --trying to tell me to be nice and I would sell more spas. He was telling me how wrong it was to start these spa wars and it went on and on and on. Mister diplomat finally got so pissed that he sent me an email and called my beautiful, very loving, wife, a "garbage can lid". That is why he is "mister diplomat" in the spa message board book. I am trying to find a good title for it. Any suggestions.

I saw that TPN is over on the bravenet message board already putting up a "defense" by saying that I am going to edit his words.

His words are so funny that I would never want to edit them. It is pure rhetorical BS and it is funny.

Whenever anybody starts out with any essay on something, I know exactly what their weakness is. This guy is so full of resentment and sneaky passive aggressive behavior, that I knew it was just a matter of time before he lost his "cork"with me and revealed what an angry, resentful person he is.

Whatever people accuse me of is their weakness and what they are blind to."

MY COMMENTS TO THIS POST;

Yes, I do believe being diplomatic is a good thing and would help increase spa sales. Although JA has exagerrated the number of posts I made relative his behavior by about 80%, I was appalled at how rude he was to folks on message boards. The more I tried to explain to him that he was alienating himself from people & prospective customers (me being one), the more he started to become nasty & rude to me. I had no vested interest in JA or his company, merely I thought I could help someone who might not see "the forest through the trees". Not that I'm an expert in interpersonal communications or anything, but hell, even my five year old acted more professional than JA did. Whenever I sent "constructive" criticism relative to his behavior, JA continued with his rude posts adamantly stating that it's me who's messed up.

Although JA has "rules" posted on his board, it's obvious he does not enforce them when they're broken but work in his favor . . . an example of this is his rule that states "Do not deliberately insult any of the people posting on this message board. Insulting posts will be remove as soon as we see them." WELL, some guy on JA's board posted an apology to JA for what he called inappropriate behavior. One of JA's "followers" responded in a very insulting way, and twice, ridiculed this guy for mis-spellings. Even though I knew it would not be posted on his moderated board, I sent a post anyway. It read as follows;

"So, here's a guy that actually apologizes to you, Jim, for posting "inappropriately", yet you, who states that you do not insult (nor do you allow other posters on your board to), allows one of your posters to insult him not once, but twice, about his lack of grammatical skills. As you often state whenever someone is as inappropriately critical of your typing/spelling, these discussions are not about someone's command (or lack thereof) of the english language, rather spa issues. So, what's the scoop about not allowing insults . . . . or do you allow them when they work in your favor??? Why not publicly tell this guy on your site that you do not/will not condone that type of response? For an ethical person, I don't see you practicing what you preach . . . .

JA'S RESPONSE;

When I told you that you were banned, I meant it. Your whole character is certainly revealed now; not the "Mr. Nice guy " that you use as a front. Sandy certainly had "your number" as they say.

You think that people can't be honest and be successful, and you are wrong. Maybe you should continue your affairs over at Doc's board and post your shit over there, if it makes you feel better."

MY RESPONSE;

"You never told me I was banned, but I should've known . . . anyone who goes against "Jim's World" will be banned. Truth hurts, doesn't it Jim. I guess I'm in good company though! The list of banned people seems to continue to grow. Hell, pretty soon, only you & your "brainwashed" customers will be allowed on your site! Wow, won't that be exciting!!

Mr. Nice guy??? Who claimed to be that?? My intentions are not to be nice or to be mean for that matter. They are to be fair & accurate; something that you cannot deal with. I just told you things you didn't want to hear, and as a result, I'm banned . . . . . ohhh, the pain, the pain (as the Dr. used to say in "Lost in Space).

Sandy had my number?? Again, I'll take that with a grain of salt. The fact that she's with you is all that I need to discredit her opinion. Obviously, she's as bitter a person as you are. I guess being snubbed by the cheerleaders & jocks really had a lasting effect on you two. At least you found each other . . . as they say, for every trash can, there's a lid (now that's an insult!)

Don't tell me what I think; half the time you don't even know what you think! I can't recall ever witnessing someone who contradicts himself and inserts his foot into his mouth as often as you. I am extremely honest, as well as successful (moreso than you'll ever hope to be). And unlike you, I don't piss everyone off when I open my mouth. I will continue to be a part of Doc's community and will continue to enjoy being part of it. Unlike yours, his board is growing. Unlike yours, his board stimulates discussion & fosters a friendly environment . . . for everyone except the likes of you & "little you" (LP). Your board pales in comparison to his. It's just a forum for you to sell spas, and for your followers to sing your praise.

Keep up the good work, oh master of interpersonal communications . . . . deny, deny, deny right up until the very end. You & I both know the truth; someday you may even accept it.

Good Luck with your business. With you in the public eye, you'll need it!!"

MY SUMMARY;

So, you see, contrary to his claim, I NEVER called his wife a garbage can lid; I merely used a metaphor in describing his & her compatability. Was it a complimentary one??? Absolutely not, it was not meant to be complimentary, but I DID NOT call her a garbage can lid. JA states unequivocally that I did . . . . just one example of how he will twist words to a whole different meaning to make them work in his favor & make others look bad!!! Another is his reference to my losing my "cork" with him, revealing what an angry, resentful person I am . . . . I see nowhere where I lost my cork or got angry . . . . I have no reason to get angry!! That's what I mean by "editing", JA . . . perhaps I should have called it embellishing. Regardless, it's not a defense, it's the truth, and it's proven here!!

BTW, I do have a good title relative to me & your book . . . how about "Free advice that I should have taken prior to driving my business under"

JA, you continue to be your own worst enemy. SEEK HELP!!!!!!!

TPN

Topic: Haven Spas (9 of 12),
From: robertsall
Date: Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:50 AM

James,

I too have that Engineering degree that you are always flaunting and I too work in the industry. As far as a debate it would be meaningless as I have my beliefs and you have your untouchable truths. Some things in life (and the spa industry) are more one's approach to a solution as there can actually be more than one alternative as to methodology. Whatever approach you take to building your spa is the only truth in your universe. How can someone debate with a person who feels they have all the answers and who responds to other postings by sending them to their website to "find the truth" (when they aren't even asking for your guidance but are asking a question unrelated to you). You are the JIM JONES of the spa industry!!!!

Topic: Haven Spas (2 of 12),
From: robertsall
Date: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 12:31 AM

Go to the top of the page and click on MORE and then go to TOP 10 POSTERS. The owner of Haven spas ("Spa Fellow", aka Spa Specailist) has over 1400 postings here under his main login. This is how he drums up sales. I have a feeling many of the Haven postings by so called owners may be the same guy posting under various logins. If you again go to MORE at the top of this page and click TOP 10 USERS you'll find someone named "SPAOWNER" has over 1000 posts. What spa owner posts that many times.

Topic: Spas and Hot tubs we are talkin 27% lies. (48 of 64),
From: National Puddin' Watch
Date: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 02:57 PM

Wednesday, June 12, 2002 01:01 PM

“We have no cases of spas overheating at all. That is because we have safety redundancy on the temperature controls. We have a modern digital control system.”

(Regarding overheating water in Haven spas)

Friday, 7 September 2001, at 1:33 a.m.

“As far as summer goes. It is a little bit of a "problem". But in winter it is a good thing. I am working on a design with relays and servos. It may never come to fuition, because the price to do it outweighs the market.”

This is going to take volumes!

Watch Dog

Topic: *** The Truth About Haven Spas Part 10*** (10 of 25),
From: SpaBuyer2002
Date: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 06:41 PM

Topic: Well Jim I wish I had the time! (51 of 64),
From: KL Enterprises
Date: Thursday, June 13, 2002 01:15 PM

It looks like I missed a bunch of stuff over here yesterday. It was supposed to be slow but one of the two deliveries was measured 1" off!! 1 hour turned into 3. I got another old spa in yesterday. A 15 year old D1. The cabinet is garbage but the rovel shell is flawless. I will be delivering for the next today and tomorrow so I don't have much time to play.

That survey is going well, don't you think?

All I can say is that I wish I had said it. Sounded like a good one-two punch.

There is a good text written specifically about Haven insulation claims here:

http://www.bravenet.com/forumindex/fmindex.php

Search for hot tub then; Click on Hot Tub Information Central and look for "Thermal Pane Bunk" I wish I had said this also! Looks like a knockout!

Missed two opportunities!

Thank you Jim. Both were well written and I thank you for the association.

I am not Sparticus ........ no wait ..... wait ....... I'M SPARTICUS!!!!!!!!!!

Any other Spartici out there?

Ken Lewis

BTW Jim, the 2 posts on your site were far from the only ones that doubted your motives. You set yourself up for multiple doubts. Thank you to Sandy for posting my attempt at dousing that particular fire.

Topic: ***WARNING working with this guy would be a nightmare******** (18 of 64),
From: KL Enterprises
Date: Friday, June 07, 2002 04:00 AM

Anyone that would like to check the records can certainly do so but follow along here:

1) FACT; Jim claims a haven spa can heat in winter IN COLORADO without a heater or cover.

***misleading lie***

QUESTION: Why install a heater at all?

2) FACT; Jim refuses to bring his spas to meet UL plumbing standards (according to claims on HIS site)

***plumbing errors are dangerous***

3) FACT; More deaths have been reported in spas from "entrapment" than any other cause

***entrapment is caused from dangerous plumbing***

4) FACT; Jim makes claims without any support

***misleading unprofessional sales tactics***

5) FACT; Jim will almost always avoid any direct answer when asked to substantiate one of his many "fairy tale" claims

6) FACT; his (according to his site again) spas had defective corona discharge units

***in reality it was poor and uninformed installation on his part. FACT; The CD factory (Delzone) had no "defective" recall on his units***

***read this forum and others look for any proof of;

a. "his two independent studies"

b."(anyone in the last 30 years of business) being burned by one of MY (or any) Blue Pacific spas"

c. His claimed "Hot Spring" recall that was actually a voluntary heater recall by a different company

d. his claimed "Hot Spring fires" do not seem to exist

Remember that most information you see on this and other forums is opinion with its base from different sources. Everything that jim prints without documentation is just simply his opinion or total fabrication.

To verify what I wrote here read this forum and/or his.

By the way readers, just so you have a little history, I was servicing and (yes) selling spas made by the same manufacturer (then Northcoast Clearwater) in the 80's before Jim was in the spa business. I was still using them in the late 80's and early 90's (as Phoenix Spas) before Jim set up with them. Jim's knowledge is fed to him by other people which is why it takes days to respond. If he responds on his own, he will either cut and paste or flame. My experience comes from working with several manufacturers in construction and design for the last 18+ years.

The reality here is that the spas I offer are a far greater value than jim's. He is jealous and is having trouble finding a solution so he resorts to personal attacks.

Do a search on this forum and his. His posts, here, are 98% limited to slamming other brands or shoppers for buying other brands. His feeling is that you can scare people into buying his product.

BTW part 2: I have searched and have yet to find a spa with mechanical controls that DOES NOT shut down the entire system when the spa begins to overheat (high limit switch). I also have not found one yet that DOES NOT have a built in "thermal overload" switch on the motor.

If any readers would like honest opinions about a spa or a spa brand there are others, including myself, that will be happy to help with any advice.

Currently the last spa I'd want to own would be a haven. I'd never want to try to convince this 'spa fellow' that HIS SPA had a defect or warranty.

Ken Lewis

Topic: Beachcomber spas or Haven? (16 of 64),
From: KL Enterprises
Date: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 09:42 PM

"If you place the front end, suction side of the pumps in any form of turns beyond the bare minimum, the pumps work a lot harder."

And THIS is why you use more 90's than necessary on your suction side as well as a suction side filter. A hydraulics engineer will tell you there are smarter ways to plumb a spa.

Check out picture 5 (Jim and Mrs. Jim delivering) in this link:

http://www.commspeed.net/nylons/fallsburg/fallsburg.html

(You're welcome for the free plug/spam for you Jim!)

Ken Lewis

Topic: Haven Spas=Rebranded Phoenix for more $$$$ (3 of 64),
From: Spa-getty
Date: Sunday, June 02, 2002 09:08 AM

I'm sorry you bought a Phoenix spa, as I've heard nothing but horror stories about them.

If Phoenix makes the Haven spas for someone else, they are still Phoenix spas.

I'm glad you seem to be having good luck with yours. Enjoy...

Topic: Haven Spas: The best engineered spas on earth (9 of 64),
From: Spa-getty
Date: Sunday, June 02, 2002 11:29 PM

Wow, that's alot of info... (and threats too !!!)

Instead of attacking me, why didn't you tell me why your spas are better than Beachcomber's spas.

I only have a deposit down on the Beachcomber, and if you gave convincing facts in a comparison between the 2 spas, I might have ordered a Haven from you.

I purchase large ticket items over the internet all the time.

Instead, you start spouting sarcastic insults and threaten to sue me. Yeah, you are the kind of guy I want to give my $7500 to.

(And you prove that everyone on this and every other spa board is right about you. You are a paranoid, overly defensive psychopath)

I notice that you seem to have no facts regarding your self implied lack of quality in the Beachcomber spas.

Oh, and you can't sue me.... Try if you want... I would welcome actually meeting you

Topic: I'll take that challenge, Jim! Will you? Or will you hide? (3 of 12),
From: KL Enterprises
Date: Saturday, February 09, 2002 12:54 PM

1) In your spas, from what I see, the equipment pack is separate from the pumps. Is this correct?

2) If so, is your heater attached to the equipment pack?

3) Is the equipment door insulated?

How well does 1/2 wood insulate?

4) In your experience what is the first thing to freeze in power outages?

(Mine is the spa pump itself. Followed closely by the heater with its metal heater housing.)

5) Is the equipment area vented in any way?

What I can gather from your site is that you keep your spas as near air tight as possible. So if your equipment area is not vented to the outside,

6) how do you relieve the heat gathered in the pack area at your circuit board box?

If it is vented to the outside,

7) how do you keep the heater housing from freezing during power outages?

I notice that you dodged the last questions. When you make a statement of accusation and can in no way, shape or form support it, then it becomes baseless. You always avoid direct questions on your spas by trying to redirect the readers to another subject.

I am now 18 months since my last electrical service on a spa (heater element) that I delivered or sold. It has been since before my association with Durabuilt that I have replaced an air switch on a spa from my warehouses. In speaking with Durabuilt they are seeing somewhere in the neighborhood of .1% failures of switches. That's right maybe 1 in a 1000! (He thought 6-8 of the last 10,000) Since they are thoroughly tested in the factory rather than by my customers, they are replaced before delivery. The ETL listed 240V 25A packs from Durabuilt are among the best in my experience. I see failures in electronic circuit boards and associated parts regularly. My estimation is that the conditions in a spas cabinet are proving too aggressive for delicate circuitry. The trend will take us to full electronics, but I'll continue to wait for a more dependable product.

In the meantime I will offer electronics to anyone that insists.

Last question:

8) Will you answer any questions put to you about your spas or your outlandish claim made a couple of posts back?

If you are smart you will say that you didn't mean to toss out accusations just to make your own spas look better.

All seasoned and savvy shoppers know, for certain, that anyone that spends so much time attacking other various other brands is doing so to hide the flaws in their own product. Your product does not need my help from attacks.

You can accuse all you wish Jim. My spas will stand the test of time as they have for over 28 years under the same name.

Readers, if this looks a tad familiar it is a cut and paste from a couple days back. It was then (and likely will be now) unanswered.

Ken Lewis

Back Yard Recreation Outlet

http://www.backyardrecreationoutlet.com

That is my name Jim. Now we can wait and see if you will, this time, remain true to your words or simply true to the form I have become accustomed to accept.

Topic: *** The Truth About Haven Spas Part 11*** (11 of 25),
From: SpaBuyer2002
Date: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 06:48 PM

As the good lawyer would say I rest my case. Anyone after reading this post and searching this forum would be a total idiot to buy a Haven/Phoenix Spa or believe a single word from a liar and con man like James Arjuna. Of course this is just my opinions! Oh and I'm just an ordinary man looking for a new toy nothing more nothing less and I'm not connected to the spa industry. But unfortunatly for James Arjuna I can read and use a computer!

Topic: *** The Truth About Haven Spas Part 11*** (12 of 25), Read 260 times
From: Spa Fellow
Date: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 02:08 AM

Obviously, SpaBuyer2002 is not a spa shopper he is one of the fellows in the spa industry that is just a tad upset with me. He is so angry that he is willing to post as an engineer, a lawyer, a spa shopper or anything to stop the education of the public. 99% of the posts against Haven Spas are fabrications.

Topic: *** The Truth About Haven Spas Part 11*** (13 of 25),
From: Smitty2
Date: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 11:17 AM

Jim, you need help. Do you think every posting on this board is from a dealer? Whenever someone dissagrees with you they are called a "dealer that is out to get me".

I think it is time you you to take some meds and get a life. You should take advice from those"satisfied" customers of yours and spend more time selling spas and not spreading your garbage all over the internet.

Smitty

Topic: *** The Truth About Haven Spas Part 11*** (14 of 25), Read 214 times
From: DavidO
Date: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 06:55 PM

You forgot a couple of interesting posts!

Jim Arjuna Rebuttal;

Yea! Right! The only thing I had to do on the site was to question his belief that full foam was better at insulating that a thermally closed designed spa. When I told Doctor Spa, that I was going to get my brother the senior engineer over to explain it to him, I was banned from his message board. That was funny. Then he came over to my message board and insulted my wife, like a fool. Man, don't ever insult a man's wife or kids. That is as low as it gets.

If you want to be banned from "What's the best" all you have to do is tell the owner that he is a rip off artist if he expects any body to pay a dollar for a click through on a banner ad. Hell. Nobody looks at those adds any way. And if you look, you will see that nobody advertises there either. I have a way with words. I just tell it like it is and if you don't like it don't be so stupid as you were to post this crap.

On the Waternet site Betty has asked me to come over an liven it up a bit. I don't like the clique over there much, very boring.

On the Bravenet board that guy is so dumb that OGI guy. I can't believe he professes to be on the consumer side, and he doesn't want me to post on safety issues. I guess he has a vested interest in out dated spas.

His board dies when I don't post on it. Just like this one did for a while when I took a break.

My all time favorite was the NSPI site. They shut down the whole message board because of me. The NSPI is impotent at policing the members and is constantly being sued for it. They do not even scold Watkins for their flagrant disregard for the ANSI standard, and they wonder why they are being sued?

It is an honor to be banned by those worthless sites with hidden agendas and are not willing to discuss spa design!

P.S.

I can't be banned anyway. You would have to shut down the board, because all you need is another IP, like I can't get a few hundred of those??? Ha! Ha!

James posted this just before he went off the deep end and created fake ID's and impersonated the system operator. This is the largest forum on the internet with over 10,000 members. This is James Arjuna's prime source of victims for his HAVEN SPA SCAM! He couldn't survive without this site because this is the only site he hasn't been banned from!

Also one more humerous post from me. But unfortunatly it also contains much truth!

Topic: Terrorist Alert! AKA James Arjuna (JA) (43 of 50),
From: DavidO
Date: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 09:01 AM

This is a public announcement to warn the public about the terrorist JA. In his secret hide out http://havenspas.tripod.com he secretly plans the take over the entire spa industry. He uses tactics like lies, deception, insults, vulgar language, and lets scare the customer, and when he gets caught by intelligent people he squirms his way out of it by trying to cover it up saying it was only humor! Mean while the major spa corporations are so scared they are quaking in their boots and it has been reported that a family member of Hot Springs has been in secret negotiations with JA so as to save their very profitable multi million dollar company from this terrorist with very limited financial funding and intelligence. In fact finances are so bad because he can't find anyone dumb enough to buy one of his spas. So he spends his entire day and night posting on the internet hoping to prey upon that one stupid victim. In order to support his internet habit JA has to send his wife out onto the streets of Colorado to hook in order to support his internet habit. It has been reported that JA has a new secret weapon that he plans to launch against the spa industry called DAIT which is an acromyn for (Dumb Ass Idiot Test). In other words if you believe this mans lies and your dumb enough to buy one of his spas your the biggest dumb ass on the planet! Yes people this was an attempt at humor, however very sadly it also tells the truth. I may be new here but I know BS when I see it! Its a good thing I don't live anywhere near Colorado or else I would slap a restraining order on this clearly mentally unstable individual from coming near my wife or kids! Now since I have the day off I'm going to get into my Sundance Optima and relax. Oh, I almost forgot since no one has congratulated the originator of this post for buying his new Artesian spa I will. Congratulations and enjoy it you made a good decision. You were perfectly correct in your reasoning about Haven spas as demonstrated by JA since only a man caught in as many lies as he was, would respond in this manner.

Topic: *** The Truth About Haven Spas Part 12 *** (15 of 25),
From: SpaBuyer2002
Date: Friday, October 04, 2002 07:34 AM

Topic: Alright, Jim - Let's start from the beginning (3 of 3),
From: DavidO
Date: Thursday, October 03, 2002 06:58 PM

Why bother the only reason Jim thinks he is a genius or spa guru is because that idiot he has for a wife makes him look like a genius. Have you ever seen her post? I think she must have graduated all the way from second grade! She must have the IQ of 60 with Jim leading with an IQ of maybe 85 on a good day! Some how I don't think he is a candidate for Mensa! Besides Jim is finished here by his own posts. Now that he has been exposed as the con man, there is no one reading this board and doing the research that would ever buy one of his cheaply made over priced Haven spas. Ever notice on his forum how when he posts those fake posts he always plugs the Fallsburg his most expensive spa? Typical con man trying to get the most money from the stupid victim. Lets face it, this is the largest forum on the internet and the most widly read forum where do you think Jim gets his customers from? He can't afford dealers, and he has no advertisment money, he has been banned from every other forum, he had to move to smaller quaters in order to pay the rent because he isn't selling his spas. Why because many intelligent people have exposed him for con man he is, running the Haven Spa Scam. No intelligent person would ever own a Haven Spa! If Jim ever got banned from this forum he would be out of buisness, thats why he has lost it and is trying every desperate tactic he can think of to keep his Haven Spa Scam going from using fake ID's to fake posts on his forum too the oh I only want to save a little kid ploy on your heart strings.

Jim isn't worth it, he is finished its only a matter of time until he is forced out of buisness. As someone else said his customers will be out of luck for warranty repairs! I sure wouldn't depend on Phoenix with that dump of a factory and the owners past history of bankrupcy.

Topic: Spa Sales? (5 of 7),
From: Anonymous
Date: Thursday, October 25, 2001 02:17 PM

Spa sales are down a little for us. We still have about 25 orders to fill and deliver across the U.S. (Sandy can only carry so many on her back at one time)

We are down about 10% from last year, but we were prepared for the slow down. We down sized the showroom, warehouse, and moved our internet business out in the "country". It was not because of a turn in the economy, but because 80% of our sales is out of state, and the large showroom was a waste of space and money. (People were complaining about the stench coming out of the store, we had to move. I think it was bull shit they were smelling)

The only thing I have noticed is the customers from out of state who used to fly in and wet test has stopped abruptly. We were getting one or two a week until the attack on the Twin Towers. (I think the work has finally got out that I am truly full of shit)

Our company is now well established and we honor our customers by taking care of them. They in turn sell spas for us, by sharing with new shoppers. That is what is making our company. (A sucker is born every day)

We don't have any jerk customers. As you can see I have little tolerance for people who play games. (If I ask the correct questions about a product am I a jerk?)

I told Sandy, jokingly, that there are only so many nice people in Broomfield, so we are lucky to have the entire world as a source for customers. (You have got to be kidding me. There is only a small handfull of people crazy enough to spend $10,000 on a Internet purchase)

We are expanding into Europe more. I think we may have a fellow who wants to sponsor our products in the UK. (Good luck)

We completely dropped the billiard tables, because the spa sales have been so great, and are now only focused on Spas. We have worked out (finally) an arrangement with our wholesaler for some awesome prices on products. We will be having a web site dedicated to super low prices on all the spa products, parts, accessories, chemicals, wood tubs. All focused on spas. (I may get banned from this site as well.) (Welcome to the club, there's only about a thousand other companies doing the same thing....Jerk)

(Side note I have a few nice billiard tables left, that we are giving away at cost, if you are interested.) (Are they stained?)

Topic: The Real Truth about Haven Spas (in one part!) (2 of 8),
From: Ghost
Date: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 02:16 AM

>4. Erik is the only
>unsatisfied Haven customer
>that all of Jim Arjuna’s
>enemies combined have been
>able to produce.
>I knew about Erik, but
>that didn’t scare me away. It
>made me ask, “Why is Erik the
>only negative Haven customer
>experience anyone has been
>able to find?”

here is where your calculations are in error. There are only 3 or 4 people posting to the message boards that are in favor of havenspas, and ONE Erik.

As I calculate it, that makes at least 25% of havenspa owners unhappy.

I highly doubt that Erik is the only "negative Haven customer". He is however, to date, the only "negative Haven customer" that has resorted to spending any time on the message boards.

Topic: The Real Truth about Haven Spas (in one part!) (3 of 8),
From: Charlie in TX
Date: Thursday, October 03, 2002 11:10 AM

Let me start by saying I have never had contact with JA. I have nothing good or bad to say about him or his company with one exception. I would not make a purchase as large as a spa on the net.

As far as your math and Eric, follow my logic and punch holes were you will. The Havens are sold on the internet. All the owners are therefor internet savvy. Any of Haven's customers who have had a bad experience could be easily found. 3 or 4 to 1, I just don't buy it. Further, I consider Eric's experience to be a positive statement about Haven. I don't judge a company by its mistakes but by what it does after it makes a mistake. Havens offering to and later refunding Eric's money makes Eric a testimonial not a dissatisfied customer. If I was to spend that kind of money over the net, it would be with someone with a track record of full refunds from dissatisfied customers.

Topic: The Real Truth about Haven Spas (in one part!) (4 of 8),
From: Ghost
Date: Thursday, October 03, 2002 11:19 AM

Unless you have a "merchant account" for processing credit cards, you might not understand how it works.

Erik instigated a "charge back" with his credit card company to recover the money he paid. The credit card company then contacts the merchant and gives them two choices: return the money to the customer, or have the credit card company forcibly TAKE the money from the merchants bank account and return it to the customer.

Either way, I don't think this can really be considered a "voluntary" refund.

On 10/3/2002 11:10:36 AM, Charlie in TX wrote:

>Let me start by saying I have
>never had contact with JA. I
>have nothing good or bad to
>say about him or his company
>with one exception. I would
>not make a purchase as large
>as a spa on the net.

>As far as your math and Eric,
>follow my logic and punch
>holes were you will. The
>Havens are sold on the
>internet. All the owners are
>therefor internet savvy. Any
>of Haven's customers who have
>had a bad experience could be
>easily found. 3 or 4 to 1, I
>just don't buy it. Further, I
>consider Eric's experience to
>be a positive statement about
>Haven. I don't judge a company
>by its mistakes but by what it
>does after it makes a mistake.
>Havens offering to and later
>refunding Eric's money makes
>Eric a testimonial not a
>dissatisfied customer. If I
>was to spend that kind of
>money over the net, it would
>be with someone with a track
>record of full refunds from
>dissatisfied customers.

Topic: The Real Truth about Haven Spas (in one part!) (5 of 8),
From: Charlie in TX
Date: Thursday, October 03, 2002 11:37 AM

I am the pres of a company that does accept cc. I did not consider that because Eric said a refund was offered without him requesting it. Eric did not say it was forced by the cc company.

Topic: The Real Truth about Haven Spas (in one part!) (6 of 8),
From: Ghost
Date: Thursday, October 03, 2002 01:05 PM

Actually he did. If you read the entire email log, it is mentioned in there (somewhere) that he filed a charge back with his credit card.

http://.havenspas.tripod.com

Topic: The Real Truth about Haven Spas (in one part!) (7 of 8),
From: spaowner
Date: Thursday, October 03, 2002 04:58 PM

Charlie,

You are one of the very few I have seen stand on Jims side of this. I'm not sure if you totally read all that went on with the Eric saga or were around when it was happening live but there are a couple of points that can't be overlooked.

Jim screwed up a number of things...

Wrong spa, bad delivery, bad support to name a few. Things like this happen to all companies. The problem came when Jim at first refused to admit his mistakes (a common trait he has exhibited) and when he finally did Eric, rightfully so, asked to be compensated for his aggravation. It is common business practice to compensate customers you have wronged. ie; An airline might give you a free ticket if they overbook, A dealer may extend your warranty if they have damaged your car. There are millions of examples of this and it's just plain good business sense. Had he offered some mutually acceptable compensation this wouldn't be still kicking around out here in his internet sales world, years later.

Jim will go off about me posting this - He'll say Eric did this and he did that and you're crazy and foolish, but the truth is there for all to review. Once reviewed everyone (so far) eventually agrees that Jim totally mishandled the situation.

spaowner

Topic: *** The Truth About Haven Spas Part 13 *** (16 of 25),
From: SpaBuyer2002
Date: Friday, October 04, 2002 08:00 AM

Topic: Oh and Puddin' read this.......way long but final! (22 of 29),
From: KL Enterprises
Date: Monday, October 08, 2001 07:52 PM

"On 10/06/2001 4:32:32 AM, Spa Fellow wrote:"

Early A.M. and the bottles are getting empty.

"You use the term truth, like you know something about it."

***It continues to escape you, doesn't it Jester? Truth tries to slap you and you duck!***

"You have to have knowledge in order to understand things."

***Something which you seek to disprove daily while speaking of things regarding spas and God.***

"I am sorry to inform you of that."

***The first part is true. You ARE sorry. In fact the sorriest waste of carbon I have experienced.***

"There is nothing wrong with an ethical salesman,"

***but you silly stupid Jester you said, "You have to have knowledge in order to understand things." so how can you POSSIBLY know anything about ethical sales persons?***

"however, you are not one. You are so wrapped up in your self, arrogant and delusional."

***Of this, Jester, "You have to have knowledge in order to understand things." and you most certainly do, don't you? ***

"When it came to ethics, I think you were absent on the day that quality was handed

out."

***Therein lies part of the bigger problem. You are under the assumption that ethics are given out and you are waiting for your share. Ethics are learned and adapted as part of a quality personality, as you will never comprehend.****

"What sort of person are you?"

***A very good, honest and truthful person. You cannot grasp the realities of the words so you can, in no way, accept these types of traits in a person.***

"I truly hate people who put on "Mr Nice Guy?" as a front to make money as you do." ***Funny thing is Jester, that I make no money at these forums. You, Jester of Spam, try to squeeze money from the people that post here as often as possible. Maybe so you can be polite to them? Is that your goal?You really want to be nice but you need to be paid first?***

"Just the fact that you couldn't even be nice to my wife should disqualify you as a human, much less an elevated one."

***I was always nice to your wife in spite of how very rude and insulting she was to me. Again a lie from you, Jester. Why do you assume I am an "elevated human"? Who disqualifies humans?***

"I don't think I have ever met or communicate with anyone more full of themselves as you."

***Look in the mirror and communicate with the ass looking back!

[Typos (you meant communicated) are entering faster now. Near empty?]

"Your ego must be so big that you have trouble walking through doors."

***Ego is earned not assumed. You likely thought "that quality was handed out" as in ethics.***

"If you can't get some sort of approval from these jerks, you can't survive."

***Are you now insulting this entire forum and its respective posters? While I do like the thanks I get from these forums, my survival comes from within!

"That is why you kiss their ass."

*** Jester, you foolish idiot, Did someone steal the cork from your late night snack? I tried to explain to you that being polite as well as informative is a GOOD thing. You are still under the impression that when helping and not getting paid, rudeness is more appropriate.

[More typos? New bottle? must have meant "asses" Unless 'these jerks' have a collective ass!]

"That is why you are so weak and cowardly." ***Using my words again, lowly Jester? I challenged you several times and (with your tail between your hind legs and hooves flying) you run away each and every time!***

"You live for some sort of recognition."

***Now, your astounding ignorance of humans is showing. The number one desire of humans is comfort and on almost every list of human traits, recognition is second or third. Among employee desires "recognition" ranks first on many lists. Of course though, regarding humans, you did say, "You have to have knowledge in order to understand things." So, can you understand human nature? Not until you ask one. (They walk on two legs Jester.)

"I have watched your nonsense for quite some time now."

***What 'nonsense', Comical Jester? That which I say, makes sense.***

"It is always about you."

***HUH???***

"It isn't about serving people."

***Stealing my quotes again, Jester? You know that most of the people that read this forum read other sites where I write. So, they see things like "service" written by me.

I do serve my 'customers' and many many other people. When in my shop they are NOT 'customers' but rather 'the people we serve'. We live and survive by that style. Service IS out top salesman!***

"I just can't understand how other are so stupid as to fall for your crap."

***The truth that escapes you so readily is felt and known by thousands from whom I have earned trust and respect. [more typos 'other'? other what? others? Go sleep it off Jester.] ***

"As long as you are ruled by your ego, there is no truth, only modified reality as you

create it."

***Finished another bottle? It was late, you were reeling, and did not realize that you had gotten to the point where you make even less sense than when you lie about spas.

I forgive you, Jester of Spas. Mostly because you are a large part of this industry in its need to laugh at itself. We need you and others like you to remind us of how truly awful it can become and how unethical some spa salesmen can become when totally consumed with monetary gains.***

(NEW)

Now this is funny! You posted the following at the time listed and look up top to see when you posted the one I am responding to now!

First you say we shouldn't, then you do!!

Brain cells killed by alcohol never grow back!

"From: Spa Fellow
Date: Friday, October 05, 2001 08:08 PM

How is it that a spa information board has become a sewer of personal attacks, by the lowest scum in the spa industry?"

***It is YOU Jester of spas. YOU bring the filth and garbage to spa sites. Look at the sites that you have been banned from as examples. There is very good information on the other sites and people are polite, YOU are the scourge of spa forums.***

YOUR ATTITUDE and nothing else drives people away from even the remotest consideration of owning a haven spa (I also believe you drive some away from Phoenix Remember 'guilt by association'?).

You were amusing for a while, comical too! Now you are a sad little jester. I am sorry for you.

Ken Lewis

Jim follow this link:

http://www.aa.org/

Topic: Riddle me this, James . . . (1 of 29),
From: TPN
Date: Friday, September 28, 2001 04:52 PM

On your board, there was a thread regarding Phoenix spas & how they compare to Haven spas. A direct quote from you on that thread; "I can remember losing a Fallsburg sale, because a prospective customer, went and tested the Standard Coronado. He wound up buying a Sundance Cameo of all things. We have never lost a wet test against the Cameo with the Fallsburg."

Correct me if I'm wrong here (actually, I'm sure you'll correct me even if I'm right, however . . . ), if a Haven lost to a Coronado, which in turn, lost to a Cameo, in essence, didn't a Haven lose a wet test to a Cameo??

Topic: Sorry Jim but this is not true and we've proved it before. (6 of 29),
From: KL Enterprises
Date: Sunday, September 30, 2001 09:38 PM

1st half truth (=lie) "There is only one thing that is assured to kick you off my message board,

insult my wife or one of my customers." People get kicked off because they prove you incorrect and challenge your designs.

I left your board because of Sandy's continuing insults to me. I emailed you and thanked you for the opportunity. You lied in public saying you kicked me off for insulting your wife. Funny thing is that I have owned a spa business longer than you, with my wife at my side all the time, and she has NEVER been insulted by a customer, competitor or supplier.

You continue to wear these imagined insults as a badge of honor. Only an idiot would believe the number (100's) of insults flung at your wife. You, however, crave insults. I will continue to accommodate that need you have as often as I have time.

2nd half truth (=lie) "Just so everybody knows, TPN is one of the all time rudest jerks we ever had on our message board."

For the record I know TPN and he is always a gentleman with people that treat him with respect. I would personally deliver a spa to his house and welcome him as a customer AND take the Sundance as a trade-in.

Puddin', each time your flaws and the flaws in your products are exposed, you flame on. As you lose ground you, claim that "whoever" has insulted your wife. You do this each time the issues on spas and spa design start showing you in an unfavorable light. (Worse if it is late P.M. and never in the early A.M.)

Everyone seems to have those few people they cannot get along with but you seem to build armies that dispute and anger you.

Anyone reading your response to the post from your site could have read it the way TPN did. Your inert disability to admit when you make a mistake creates threads like this. Just say, "This is what it should have said ...." and leave it at that.

TPN does not need me to fight this battle for him but I wanted to clear the air concerning your lying about me and likely about others.

Topic: Oh and Puddin' read this....... (18 of 29),
From: KL Enterprises
Date: Friday, October 05, 2001 03:23 PM

I must assume that you are still sober at this time of the day so maybe you will understand this.

"On 10/05/2001 12:24:03 PM, Spa Fellow wrote:

Ken; There is one thing on this earth that I despise more than anything, a two faced person. One that will kiss you on the cheek while they stab you in the back.

That is what you are."

I am glad you told me this. Let me know if you find one in actuality rather than in your highly warped imagination.

Since we are on the subject of things we hate, I despise a liar and a coward which fits your personality like a glove.

You are polite to people that hand you money and often rude to those that have not paid you. People buy your "better" side and I will never stoop to that.

"You are nothing but a sneaky, sleazy used car salesman."

I am and have been a professional salesman for most of my life. Professional because I treat others with integrity, honesty and truth. You have no understanding of those words as you prove time and time again.

Sneaky and sleazy, you ass? Where did you come up with that? I attack you face to face and stick to the issues as long as you are able. Once you are "into your cups" and rant to change the subject, then I will join that fray also.

"In case you want some feedback on your behavior concerning me and my family."

JackAss, this is a partial sentence and makes less sense than you usually do!!

"There is one thing I know for sure..."

Maybe you do know one thing for sure, maybe.

"....and that is that God is watching you and what you do and say."

This is at least one truth you have shown.

If anyone ever asks you if you think God has a sense of humor just take a step back from them and say, "Look at me! If this is not humor, I don't know what is!"

Jester of Spas, you slay me!

Topic: *** The Truth About Haven Spas Part 14 *** (17 of 25),
From: SpaBuyer2002
Date: Friday, October 04, 2002 08:01 AM

Topic: Haven Spas and Contradictions (4 of 77),
From: Anonymous
Date: Thursday, September 13, 2001 01:35 AM

So there in no doubt the quoted areas are from Spa Specialist site.

1) This link form the first page of Spa Specialist:

“Non-bromine/chlorine ionizer spa treatment system”

Leads to,

“The Quick Start instructions for your Haven spa.”

“10. After each use put in one tablespoon Non-chlorine shock and one teaspoon granular chlorine/ per one or two bathers. If it starts to cloud up, add more next time.”

It implies no bromine and no chlorine is needed form the link!

2) Spa Buyer's Questions and Answers also from the first page

“The Best insulation for a spa is Thermal Sealed or sometimes called thermal lock, thermal pane or air tight. This method has the maximum amount of efficiency without letting cold air into the spa's equipment area.

(Beware! There are only a few ways to make a true thermally sealed spa. Some manufactures call their spa thermal pane, when actually they are vented and expensive to operate.)”

Portable spas that have pumps under the cabinet need air to cool them. Portable spas draw air through air dials. Air is not created inside the spa cabinet so there must be a source for the air. This air comes from outside the cabinet on all portable spas with air dials and pumps. If the spa has an air blower motor the needed source for air has magnified greatly. A portable spa must draw air from outside the cabinet to, cool pumps, feed air, to air dials and to supply air to the blower if it has such a pump. A portable spa cabinet therefore can NEVER be sealed, closed or airtight. They can get close by not having obvious vents but they ALL must have an air source. You imply your cabinet is airtight and any spa manufacturer knows it cannot be sealed or airtight.

3) Spa Buyer's Questions and Answers also from the first page

“If you own a fully foamed spa with a vented cabinet, using a full sized pump on low speed for heating and filtering, and it has a blower, a gas heater may be a good idea. Over a period of 7 years , the spa will cost you abut $1600 extra in electricity alone more than a thermally sealed spa.”

Where did you get these figures or how did you arrive at them. The studies I have read show full foam to be more efficient on the annual average but it has been only by a dollar or two. At $2 per month it takes 66.67 years to invest $1600 dollars. According to these figures you could operate two Haven spas at a lower rate than one HotSpring spa. That we’d love to see tested!

4) Spa Buyer's Questions and Answers also from the first page

“Insulation: A fully foamed spa usually cost more in electricity to operate than an identically equipped true thermal pane spa. This is especially true in cold climates. The average costs should be under $20 per month in Colorado (Denver area) even with two 4.5 HP water pumps, a 2 HP an air pump and a 240 volt heater.”

Seems to me that your 24/7 pump will cost more than that per month to run without the heater, without the jets, without the blower. How did you get the figures to arrive at this claim? At 6.3 amps running 24/7 and a kw rate of $.045 kph (very low) you would invest $10. 48 per WEEK alone!

The trouble here is not that Haven is not a good spa. It may well be. To offer it as the “best” spa is an exaggeration. It appears to be a good mid-line portable spa.

Topic: Haven Spas and Contradictions (5 of 77),
From: spaowner
Date: Thursday, September 13, 2001 08:44 AM

As the post above points out there are inconsistencies in the spaspecialists claims. Jim claims to not be a salesma