Topic: 21 Reasons Why I Would Never Buy a Haven/Phoenix Spa
From: Anonymous ()
Date: Monday, September 16, 2002 02:25 PM
Hi Folks,
As a person who has found these forums useful and having been on a 5 month journey of
finding a new spa to replace my old 10 year old spa I thought I would share some of my
thoughts and feelings as an engineer with graduate degrees from MIT in Electrical
Engineering and Applied Physics. I have been following the thread titled " You have
Got to be kidding!" to be very interesting which I would suggest everyone read first.
In response to this thread here are the reasons why I would personally never buy a
Haven/Phoenix spa. I can only hope this helps out someone and they understand the logic
involved and why I agree with originator of the above mentioned thread, about Mr. Arjuna
being nothing more than a desperate salesman.
1) As one person mentioned in the thread check Mr. Arjuna's old posts. In researching the
old posts you can truly see his true character as a person who will say or doing anything
to sell his spas and as Angeloftruth recently pointed out in the thread his story isn't
consistent and varies constantly.
2) In his posts he uses the tactic of trying to scare customers by saying usually one of
the following things.
a. The spa is full foam and will freeze if GFI fails and your away.
b. The shell will crack.
c. Full foam costs a fortune to fix a leak.
d. The plumbing is bad and users diverter valves.
e. I have never heard good things about that spa.
The reality of the situation is as follows. All major spa companies use full foam because
it has solid science behind it and is proven in the field. In a quick search of over 78
engineering and physics databases I could only find one article back in 1978 at Cal Tech
that did a study of electrical motors in a thermal enclosure. Bottom-line this is like
comparing apples to oranges and as some in the original thread mentioned it is pseudo
science. Use your common sense if you were building a house and one contractor came to you
and said I'm going to put a thin piece of foil on the inside of your walls instead of 6
inches of installation would you let him? You would tell him where to go and rightfully
so. During my search of the engineering databases there are many articles supporting the
use of full foam as an insulating, soundproofing, and to some extent as an adjutant
structural support. I live up in the Northeast and my old spa is full foam 10 years old
and never froze once nor leaked. Talking with spa repair folk in the Northeast a spa
freezing is a rare occurrence a maybe 1 in 4000 shot, so you should not make this a
consideration in purchasing a spa. Even more interesting was the spa that froze that he
had worked on was an L.A. with the thermal design and the customer hadn't opted for the
full foam option. Also when asked about full foam leaks most spa techs told me it was easy
to fix and about a $500 job but it also was a rare occurrence on any major brand. The only
shell problems I have heard about either by friends or spa techs mostly involved
Hotsprings or D1 and those were mostly after they were 7 or more years old. As an engineer
I happen to agree that using foam as a structural support is a bad idea, which is why I
eliminated Hotspring and D1 off my list. Particularly D1 if you read their warranty you
have to send the spa back starting at year 7 if there is a structural problem with the
shell. Also having had a spa for 10 years I can tell you they are like cars. Plan on
having to fix them on occasion because parts do were out just like in cars.
3) Mr. Arjuna in his own posts admits he isn't an engineer with any advanced degrees and
his background is one of a electrician and a spa tech. Given that I wouldn't want him
designing any spa I put my hard earned money into. He apparently feels that he knows more
than the multi million-dollar spa companies who keep a staff of engineers to develop and
over see the manufacturing of their spas. How logical is this?
4) Most large spa companies have designed special heaters, pumps etc and have many patents
and made major develops has Mr. Arjuna done any of these things? Does he have a single
patent or major breakthrough in his name? The answer is NO.
5) As someone in the thread mentioned Mr. Arjuna uses generic parts, and his posts concur,
including a heater. Most large spa companies have specially designed heaters because they
don't want to be replacing them under warranty and they want them to last. In the 10 years
that I have had my old spa I had to replace the heater 3 times because it was a generic
heater and the coil was exposed to the water.
6) After looking over the Phoenix information I can vouch for it being a cheap design and
the pictures of the factory do not make me want to be buying from them anytime in the
future.
7) As Mr. Arjuna says in his post he is a family run company. This translates to a company
with little financial backing behind him. So this means he can be out of business at
anytime and with only a couple of years in the business I would not be putting my hard
earned money into a spa that I can't see over the internet.
8) In looking over the old posts in the archives Mr. Arjuna doesn't really talk about spa
design he uses that as an excuse to start up his sales banter. So no I won't be getting
into a spa engineering design discussion with you Mr. Arjuna just so you can try another
sales pitch. Besides as a professional engineer I find it insulting that you can even
consider yourself at my level without a single advanced degree to your credit. I'm not
wasting my time and I'm sure no other professional engineer is as well. That is the real
reason why people are not entering into debates with you. A debate is between equals and
you by your own admission don't qualify.
9) If the person who started this post is right about the people owning Phoenix going
bankrupt before, than its highly probable they will do the same thing again and is
indicated, by all the people on the forums complaining about problems and Phoenix not
honoring their warranty. This also would mean as Haven Customer you would be left high and
dry because Mr. Arjuna would also be forced to go bankrupt.
10) Mr Arjuna apparently thinks that all the major spa companies are out to get him. How
logical is this? Multi million dollar companies that have teams of engineers and patents
and that are selling thousands of spas are worried about a small family run business by a
electrician/spa repair guy. If this isn't paranoid I don't know what is! This would cause
me to question Mr. Arjuna's mental stability.
11) How logical is it be buying a 3-14k spa over the Internet from a person who promises
to service you where ever you live? I don't know about the other readers, but I want a
local dealer that I can go to deal with.
12) As someone pointed out Mr. Arjuna has placed close to 1500 posts on this board alone.
This indicates to me personally that his motive is purely to direct people over to his
site in the hopes of making a sale. Not a good sign of a legitimate person.
13) He accuses Dr. Spa of building death traps. I find this disgusting and unprofessional.
Dr. Spa has done nothing but help numerous people on his forum. This alone would make me
question Mr. Arjuna's integrity and mental state.
14) The fact the Mr. Arjuna admits to being banned from forums is not a good indicator
either. You have to do some pretty bad things to banned from a forum.
15) If you do read Mr. Arjuna's web site while he does have some simple engineering
concepts which he uses as a sales pitch, it is heavily slanted towards the Haven/Phoenix
spa so it isn't an independent source of information as claimed.
16) I agree with the person in thread that stated if Mr. Arjuna was so dedicated he would
be building his own spas instead of making minor modifications to the poorly designed
Phoenix spas.
17) Mr. Arjuna is very adapt at taking a particular theme and using at as a sales pitch.
His latest one is the ANSI standard. What he fails to tell everyone just like in the IEEE
standards committee various companies come together and agree on a certain specification,
how that specification is interpreted and implemented is up to the particular company
involved. In other words all major spa companies follow ANSI standards.
18) On the specification for the Fallsburg http://www.spaspecialist.com/falls.html it
rates the horsepower of the Fallsburg as 5BHP or brake horse power. Brake horsepower
happens as the motor starts up and lasts less than a second. What needs to be considered
is continuous horsepower not brake horse power. Talking about brake horsepower is a way of
deceiving the customer away from the actual horsepower rating. Talking with a couple of
hydro engineers before I began my spa journey they advised me to sure that there are no
more than 5 jets per 1 continuous horse power for maximum therapy. So again in Mr.
Arjuna's own site we have deliberate deception going on. If we make the assumption that
his pumps are really 3HP continuous than with 42 jets and 2 pumps we can see that the
Fallsburg would fail the test of providing good therapy, since the rule would only allow
for 30 jets max this would put him 12 over the limit. This rule can also be applied to
other spa brands.
19) Again if you look at the specifications for the Fallsburg it is only using two
filters. If we assume for the moment that we get a super custom Fallsburg with a 24 hour
circulating pump so we can compete with larger spa manufactures than that leaves a serious
problem with filtration since each pump would need a separate filter. In other words 3
pumps 3 filters if you want continuous filtration particularly when you're in the spa.
This means that Mr. Arjunas spas have bypass the filtration when the therapy pumps are on,
or in other words when you need the filtration the most. Not a good thing in my opinion.
Most major spa manufactures would never bypass the filtration.
20) In Mr. Arjuna's older posts talking about Erik he used terms and language that I as a
customer would not like to be used in reference to myself. The fact that anyone would talk
that way about a customer is totally unprofessional. Regardless of what happened I have to
believe there is some truth to Erik's experience with Mr. Arjuna and you never, ever talk
about a customer the way Mr. Arjuna talks about Erik.
21) The fact that someone took the time to start up the Tripod web sight as a warning to
other people should cause a little red light to light up about Mr. Arjuna and the fact he
tried to get it shut down doesn't help the situation.
Anyway I think that I have stated my reasons clearly why I personally would never buy a
Haven/Phoenix spa. What spa did I end up buying? Well after the person who started this
thread led me to the Artesian web sight. I was impressed with what I saw and went to my
local Artesian dealer and was even more impressed with professionalism and engineering
knowledge of the dealer. The dealer has been in business for 20 years. We literally took a
Piper Glen apart so I could see and understand the engineering involved. Then we put it
back together and my wife and I wet tested it. They also have the best warranty that I
have seen so far including a lifetime shell warranty, which isn't pro-rated, and I have
looked at 10 different spas to date. Artesian has raised the bar for other spa companies
with their new Directflo pumps at each therapy seat. What this means is that instead of
going from one the main therapy pumps to 2 or more seats via plumbing and manifolds, the
pump is directly attached to the manifold of the therapy seat giving it incredible
therapy. Also because of the new motor design you can adjust the intensity of the massage
to your liking directly on the motor without diverter valves. This is an incredible break
through for the spa industry and will leave a lot of competition in the dust including
Haven/Phoenix spas, although pretty much everyone else does in my opinion anyway. So yes I
bought an Artesian Piper Glen this weekend and no I would never consider buying Haven spa
for reasons cited above.
Topic: ***MORE CONSUMER WARNING******
From: Spa Fellow
Date: Monday, September 16, 2002 04:26 PM
Pay careful attention to this. This is the spa shopper's most important weapon against
lies and hype. It is called the ANSI standard for Portable Spas.
Right now most of the major spa companies disregard these important safety rules,
concerning water purity, and safe bathing protection from skin burns.
Take this link and read is very well. It could save your skin, your child's skin or life
or your life. These rules were installed by safety experts from all across the United
States. If you don't read them, then you are vulnerable to greedy spa companies who place
money before safety.
http://www.xxxxxxx.com/ANSI1.html
There is no way for a spa manufacturer to deny this information. I comes straight from the
ANSI (American National Standards Institute )and the NSPI (National Spa and Pool
Institute).
I am really tired of seeing the consumers spend hard earned money on products that are
driven by greed and not by engineering and safety.
James Arjuna
Topic: ...and why I would
From: Wisoki
Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 01:08 PM
Well apparently they are not as well engineered as they are touted to be as we can see by
your above post, with the topic, "Why do I itch".
Frank
Topic: ...and why I would
From: KTB
Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 01:35 PM
I don't even own a Haven spa, Frank. I own a Master. To assume one or the other is
ill-engineered because certain jets create an itchy feeling on high speed with the air
valves wide open is a stretch.
Do you idiots - and I mean all of you, realize what a colossal waste of time and energy
your bickering is? It is of no value to consumers. Brighter minds have pleaded in the past
to curb your attacks to no avail. I look at these essays you guys post and think, my God -
don't they have businesses to run? I'm your average Joe-Consumer that frankly, has time to
kill at work. You people own, represent or work for a living in the spa business. Get a
life, grab a beer, say hi to your wife and kids and go soak in whatever spa you consider
the best in the world. Believe it or not, their are some people out there that think their
Home Depot spa is the greatest thing in the world. Let it go - it's just a hot tub.
Topic: This is too funny!!! You guys have got to be kidding!!!
From: Spa Fellow
Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 09:19 PM
Actually I am writing a book that contains all of these message boards. I have a lot of
fun reading how stupid all these professionals are at trying to stop me.
The fun part is when a real engineer reads it, and understands the foolishness and the
flaws in this attempt at BS. If this guy is an engineer, God help anybody who uses his
stuff.
I have all the posts by Doc, AGP, and some of my favorites are Ken Lewis, God those are
hilarious. There was this guy called Dimented One. He was so funny! Then there was that
fool OG1 when I publish his funny stuff. Jeff from Mass with the Sundance store, boy he
was really suprised.
I have about 1,000 pages to sift through. My all time favorite was when Doctor Spa was
suckered in at the Bravenet and then Over here. When he admitted that he has no idea how
to build a spa with suctions. He came over and erased all of his posts as fast as he
could, when he realized that I was correct. Then he make a half assed change to his
drawing. He needs to follow what he Hot Tub industry does as a standard. Only a fool would
do what he does.
I truly hope he wakes up, before he winds up in prison. He has a wife an child to place
before his arrogance. I want to see how he does from here on.
I have to say that the all time "Prize winning idiot" is Steve from Beachcomber.
I have about six really good posts from frozen Beachcomber spa, customers. I would like to
see the fellow, Beachcomber owner, taking his Beachcomber box of pumps in his house to
keep them from freezing. HA! HA!
This last essay is a classic. I have never seen anybody with such a weak thought process
in my life. He couldn't even fool a two year old with that MIT crap.
James Arjuna
Topic: Here is the answer on the itchy skin
From: Spa Fellow
Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 11:49 PM
On 9/17/2002 1:35:55 PM, KTB wrote:
>I don't even own a Haven spa,
>Frank. I own a Master. To
>assume one or the other is
>ill-engineered because certain
>jets create an itchy feeling
>on high speed with the air
>valves wide open is a stretch.
>
>Do you idiots - and I mean all
>of you, realize what a
>colossal waste of time and
>energy your bickering is? It
>is of no value to consumers.
>Brighter minds have pleaded in
>the past to curb your attacks
>to no avail. I look at these
>essays you guys post and
>think, my God - don't they
>have businesses to run? I'm
>your average Joe-Consumer that
>frankly, has time to kill at
>work. You people own,
>represent or work for a living
>in the spa business. Get a
>life, grab a beer, say hi to
>your wife and kids and go soak
>in whatever spa you consider
>the best in the world.
>Believe it or not, their are
>some people out there that
>think their Home Depot spa is
>the greatest thing in the
>world. Let it go - it's just
>a hot tub.
>
I am writing a book about the ignorance in the spa industry. This is one of my research
places.
I draw these guy in and then play with them. They ask for it.
I spent many years studying natural healing methods. Actually I was married to a health
nut. It was extremely interesting and I gained a lot of healing knowledge.
One of the main things in disease is the toxins in our bodies. Most of the really bad
stuff is absorbed in fat cells. It seems that the fat cells absorb toxins to protect the
rest of the body. (That is one theory on it.)
When you are in a spa with strong therapy, the jets will disturb the fat tissue and some
of these toxins escape. The itching on the skin is cause by the toxins, the same as a sort
of internal irritating rash. Some of these toxins are petroleum base from pesticides in
food. Over a long period of time these toxins build up.
The smartest thing to do is drink lots of water before you go in the spa, and lots of
water while you are in the spa and lots of water after you get out. You must flush
(urinate) these toxins out of your body. This will actually make you more healthy over
time.
Every body gets these toxins, because of our unhealthy life style. So, it is not a bad
thing, it is just a fact.
As you use the spa over time the itching will subside as the toxins are flushed out of
your body. You will also feel better in time.
I recommend checking with a health professional and take some good vitamins like C, B, and
E. Eat natural foods that are low in pesticides. Stop eating all foods with hydrogenated
vegetable oil.
I hope that helps you.
James Arjuna
Topic: Here is the answer on the itchy skin
From: Dmt123
Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 11:58 PM
Oh, great now not only a spa expert Jim is an expert on nutrition. What are you going to
do next Jim? Start selling vitamins that you engineer and that are better than those big
company mass produced vitamins. I hope the factory for your vitamins is not that same old
dirty falling apart one that makes your spas. DMT
Topic: Here is the answer on the itchy skin
From: Spa Fellow
Date: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 12:07 AM
Hey it is good to see you here! My old arch nemesis in person.
Actually this is pretty common knowledge in all of the health books.
I always drink water before going in and while am in the tub and when I get out. I also
head for the rest room after a soak.
The newest spas we have are so much fun to test out.
I hope you are enjoying your spa. Have you seen the latest articles on the Spa Specialist
site on the ANSI and heater temperatures?
htt://www.xxxxxxx.com/ANSI!.html
Again, it is good to see you around on the board. :-)
James Arjuna
Topic: Here is the answer on the itchy skin
From: Newguy
Date: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 09:53 AM
On 9/18/2002 12:07:29 AM, Spa Fellow wrote:
>I always drink water before
>going in and while am in the
>tub and when I get out. I
>also head for the rest room
>after a soak.
If I drank that much water, I'd have to head for the rest room, too:-)
Topic: Here is the answer on the itchy skin
From: Anonymous ()
Date: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 10:18 AM
On 9/18/2002 9:53:50 AM, Newguy wrote:
>On 9/18/2002 12:07:29 AM, Spa Fellow
>wrote:
>>I always drink water before
>>going in and while am in the
>>tub and when I get out. I
>>also head for the rest room
>>after a soak.
>If I drank that much water, I'd have to
>head for the rest room, too:-)
>
but I bet there's no scotch in your water.
Topic: ...and why I would
From: Wisoki
Date: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 12:42 PM
I believe you stated "why I would (buy a Haven spa). As far as that goes. The
question about itching was asked, and answered.
Frank
Topic: ...and why I would
From: WCR861
Date: Thursday, September 19, 2002 12:07 AM
I THINK THE PHOENIX SPAS ARE A GREAT SPA,I LIVE IN MINNESOTA,THE SPA I HAVE PERFORMS
GREAT,QUIET,& AT A LOW COST TO ME . I LOVE & THINK EVERYONE ELSE WOULD TOO.
Topic: ...and why I would
From: Wisoki
Date: Thursday, September 19, 2002 12:21 PM
Congratulation on buying a spa you like and enjoy. Take care of it and you'll get many
years of enjoyment out of it.
Frank
Topic: Why I Would always Buy a Haven Spa
From: Spa Fellow
Date: Monday, September 16, 2002 04:42 PM
On 9/16/2002 2:25:21 PM, Anonymous wrote:
>Hi Folks,
>
>As a person who has found
>these forums useful and having
>been on a 5 month journey of
>finding a new spa to replace
>my old 10 year old spa I
>thought I would share some of
>my thoughts and feelings as an
>engineer with graduate degrees
>from MIT in Electrical
>Engineering and Applied
>Physics. I have been following
>the thread titled " You have
>Got to be kidding!" to be very
>interesting which I would
>suggest everyone read first.
>In response to this thread
>here are the reasons why I
>would personally never buy a
>Haven/Phoenix spa. I can only
>hope this helps out someone
>and they understand the logic
>involved and why I agree with
>originator of the above
>mentioned thread, about Mr.
>Arjuna being nothing more than
>a desperate salesman.
>
>1) As one person mentioned in
>the thread check Mr. Arjuna's
>old posts. In researching the
>old posts you can truly see
>his true character as a person
>who will say or doing anything
>to sell his spas and as
>Angeloftruth recently pointed
>out in the thread his story
>isn't consistent and varies
>constantly.
>
>2) In his posts he uses the
>tactic of trying to scare
>customers by saying usually
>one of the following things.
>
>a. The spa is full foam and
>will freeze if GFI fails and
>your away.
>b. The shell will crack.
>c. Full foam costs a fortune
>to fix a leak.
>d. The plumbing is bad and
>users diverter valves.
>e. I have never heard good
>things about that spa.
>
>The reality of the situation
>is as follows. All major spa
>companies use full foam
>because it has solid science
>behind it and is proven in the
>field. In a quick search of
>over 78 engineering and
>physics databases I could only
>find one article back in 1978
>at Cal Tech that did a study
>of electrical motors in a
>thermal enclosure. Bottom-line
>this is like comparing apples
>to oranges and as some in the
>original thread mentioned it
>is pseudo science. Use your
>common sense if you were
>building a house and one
>contractor came to you and
>said I'm going to put a thin
>piece of foil on the inside of
>your walls instead of 6 inches
>of installation would you let
>him? You would tell him where
>to go and rightfully so.
>During my search of the
>engineering databases there
>are many articles supporting
>the use of full foam as an
>insulating, soundproofing, and
>to some extent as an adjutant
>structural support. I live up
>in the Northeast and my old
>spa is full foam 10 years old
>and never froze once nor
>leaked. Talking with spa
>repair folk in the Northeast a
>spa freezing is a rare
>occurrence a maybe 1 in 4000
>shot, so you should not make
>this a consideration in
>purchasing a spa. Even more
>interesting was the spa that
>froze that he had worked on
>was an L.A. with the thermal
>design and the customer hadn't
>opted for the full foam
>option. Also when asked about
>full foam leaks most spa techs
>told me it was easy to fix and
>about a $500 job but it also
>was a rare occurrence on any
>major brand. The only shell
>problems I have heard about
>either by friends or spa techs
>mostly involved Hotsprings or
>D1 and those were mostly after
>they were 7 or more years old.
>As an engineer I happen to
>agree that using foam as a
>structural support is a bad
>idea, which is why I
>eliminated Hotspring and D1
>off my list. Particularly D1
>if you read their warranty you
>have to send the spa back
>starting at year 7 if there is
>a structural problem with the
>shell. Also having had a spa
>for 10 years I can tell you
>they are like cars. Plan on
>having to fix them on occasion
>because parts do were out just
>like in cars.
>
>3) Mr. Arjuna in his own posts
>admits he isn't an engineer
>with any advanced degrees and
>his background is one of a
>electrician and a spa tech.
>Given that I wouldn't want him
>designing any spa I put my
>hard earned money into. He
>apparently feels that he knows
>more than the multi
>million-dollar spa companies
>who keep a staff of engineers
>to develop and over see the
>manufacturing of their spas.
>How logical is this?
>4) Most large spa companies
>have designed special heaters,
>pumps etc and have many
>patents and made major
>develops has Mr. Arjuna done
>any of these things? Does he
>have a single patent or major
>breakthrough in his name? The
>answer is NO.
>5) As someone in the thread
>mentioned Mr. Arjuna uses
>generic parts, and his posts
>concur, including a heater.
>Most large spa companies have
>specially designed heaters
>because they don't want to be
>replacing them under warranty
>and they want them to last. In
>the 10 years that I have had
>my old spa I had to replace
>the heater 3 times because it
>was a generic heater and the
>coil was exposed to the water.
>6) After looking over the
>Phoenix information I can
>vouch for it being a cheap
>design and the pictures of the
>factory do not make me want to
>be buying from them anytime in
>the future.
>7) As Mr. Arjuna says in his
>post he is a family run
>company. This translates to a
>company with little financial
>backing behind him. So this
>means he can be out of
>business at anytime and with
>only a couple of years in the
>business I would not be
>putting my hard earned money
>into a spa that I can't see
>over the internet.
>8) In looking over the old
>posts in the archives Mr.
>Arjuna doesn't really talk
>about spa design he uses that
>as an excuse to start up his
>sales banter. So no I won't be
>getting into a spa engineering
>design discussion with you Mr.
>Arjuna just so you can try
>another sales pitch. Besides
>as a professional engineer I
>find it insulting that you can
>even consider yourself at my
>level without a single
>advanced degree to your
>credit. I'm not wasting my
>time and I'm sure no other
>professional engineer is as
>well. That is the real reason
>why people are not entering
>into debates with you. A
>debate is between equals and
>you by your own admission
>don't qualify.
>9) If the person who started
>this post is right about the
>people owning Phoenix going
>bankrupt before, than its
>highly probable they will do
>the same thing again and is
>indicated, by all the people
>on the forums complaining
>about problems and Phoenix not
>honoring their warranty. This
>also would mean as Haven
>Customer you would be left
>high and dry because Mr.
>Arjuna would also be forced to
>go bankrupt.
>10) Mr Arjuna apparently
>thinks that all the major spa
>companies are out to get him.
>How logical is this? Multi
>million dollar companies that
>have teams of engineers and
>patents and that are selling
>thousands of spas are worried
>about a small family run
>business by a electrician/spa
>repair guy. If this isn't
>paranoid I don't know what is!
>This would cause me to
>question Mr. Arjuna's mental
>stability.
>11) How logical is it be
>buying a 3-14k spa over the
>Internet from a person who
>promises to service you where
>ever you live? I don't know
>about the other readers, but I
>want a local dealer that I can
>go to deal with.
>12) As someone pointed out Mr.
>Arjuna has placed close to
>1500 posts on this board
>alone. This indicates to me
>personally that his motive is
>purely to direct people over
>to his site in the hopes of
>making a sale. Not a good sign
>of a legitimate person.
>13) He accuses Dr. Spa of
>building death traps. I find
>this disgusting and
>unprofessional. Dr. Spa has
>done nothing but help numerous
>people on his forum. This
>alone would make me question
>Mr. Arjuna's integrity and
>mental state.
>14) The fact the Mr. Arjuna
>admits to being banned from
>forums is not a good indicator
>either. You have to do some
>pretty bad things to banned
>from a forum.
>15) If you do read Mr.
>Arjuna's web site while he
>does have some simple
>engineering concepts which he
>uses as a sales pitch, it is
>heavily slanted towards the
>Haven/Phoenix spa so it isn't
>an independent source of
>information as claimed.
>16) I agree with the person in
>thread that stated if Mr.
>Arjuna was so dedicated he
>would be building his own spas
>instead of making minor
>modifications to the poorly
>designed Phoenix spas.
>17) Mr. Arjuna is very adapt
>at taking a particular theme
>and using at as a sales pitch.
>His latest one is the ANSI
>standard. What he fails to
>tell everyone just like in the
>IEEE standards committee
>various companies come
>together and agree on a
>certain specification, how
>that specification is
>interpreted and implemented is
>up to the particular company
>involved. In other words all
>major spa companies follow
>ANSI standards.
>18) On the specification for
>the Fallsburg
>http://www.spaspecialist.com/f
>alls.html it rates the
>horsepower of the Fallsburg as
>5BHP or brake horse power.
>Brake horsepower happens as
>the motor starts up and lasts
>less than a second. What needs
>to be considered is continuous
>horsepower not brake horse
>power. Talking about brake
>horsepower is a way of
>deceiving the customer away
>from the actual horsepower
>rating. Talking with a couple
>of hydro engineers before I
>began my spa journey they
>advised me to sure that there
>are no more than 5 jets per 1
>continuous horse power for
>maximum therapy. So again in
>Mr. Arjuna's own site we have
>deliberate deception going on.
>If we make the assumption that
>his pumps are really 3HP
>continuous than with 42 jets
>and 2 pumps we can see that
>the Fallsburg would fail the
>test of providing good
>therapy, since the rule would
>only allow for 30 jets max
>this would put him 12 over the
>limit. This rule can also be
>applied to other spa brands.
>19) Again if you look at the
>specifications for the
>Fallsburg it is only using two
>filters. If we assume for the
>moment that we get a super
>custom Fallsburg with a 24
>hour circulating pump so we
>can compete with larger spa
>manufactures than that leaves
>a serious problem with
>filtration since each pump
>would need a separate filter.
>In other words 3 pumps 3
>filters if you want continuous
>filtration particularly when
>you're in the spa. This means
>that Mr. Arjunas spas have
>bypass the filtration when the
>therapy pumps are on, or in
>other words when you need the
>filtration the most. Not a
>good thing in my opinion. Most
>major spa manufactures would
>never bypass the filtration.
>20) In Mr. Arjuna's older
>posts talking about Erik he
>used terms and language that I
>as a customer would not like
>to be used in reference to
>myself. The fact that anyone
>would talk that way about a
>customer is totally
>unprofessional. Regardless of
>what happened I have to
>believe there is some truth to
>Erik's experience with Mr.
>Arjuna and you never, ever
>talk about a customer the way
>Mr. Arjuna talks about Erik.
>21) The fact that someone took
>the time to start up the
>Tripod web sight as a warning
>to other people should cause a
>little red light to light up
>about Mr. Arjuna and the fact
>he tried to get it shut down
>doesn't help the situation.
>
>Anyway I think that I have
>stated my reasons clearly why
>I personally would never buy a
>Haven/Phoenix spa. What spa
>did I end up buying? Well
>after the person who started
>this thread led me to the
>Artesian web sight. I was
>impressed with what I saw and
>went to my local Artesian
>dealer and was even more
>impressed with professionalism
>and engineering knowledge of
>the dealer. The dealer has
>been in business for 20 years.
>We literally took a Piper Glen
>apart so I could see and
>understand the engineering
>involved. Then we put it back
>together and my wife and I wet
>tested it. They also have the
>best warranty that I have seen
>so far including a lifetime
>shell warranty, which isn't
>pro-rated, and I have looked
>at 10 different spas to date.
>Artesian has raised the bar
>for other spa companies with
>their new Directflo pumps at
>each therapy seat. What this
>means is that instead of going
>from one the main therapy
>pumps to 2 or more seats via
>plumbing and manifolds, the
>pump is directly attached to
>the manifold of the therapy
>seat giving it incredible
>therapy. Also because of the
>new motor design you can
>adjust the intensity of the
>massage to your liking
>directly on the motor without
>diverter valves. This is an
>incredible break through for
>the spa industry and will
>leave a lot of competition in
>the dust including
>Haven/Phoenix spas, although
>pretty much everyone else does
>in my opinion anyway. So yes I
>bought an Artesian Piper Glen
>this weekend and no I would
>never consider buying Haven
>spa for reasons cited above.
>
Let's see, you must be an awfully uniformed engineer in reference to spa design.. I don't
really think you are one. The first place to look is in the ANSI standard when you are
designing a spa. According to my brother the 40 year senior design engineer, that is the
place to start. He says that you can have all the hype and BS on earth, but if it isn't
safe, then you need to apply the safety rules first.
Can I tell you something. It is not good to confuse the readers with so much confusion in
one post. This is a typical spa sales guy method, and does not add any credibility to your
statements. A true engineer would address one point at a time until the subject is clear.
I would like for you to come over to my site and we can have a discussion on each of the
engineering and scientific principles you don't understand.
First of all each and every thing I teach about comes from standard engineering principle
and from standard physics.
Apparently, I have much more knowledge about these subjects than you do. It would benefit
you to learn the basis of the Thermally Closed design before you open your ignorant
keyboard.
Anybody who professes to be a MIT graduate could never ever say what you just did. That
leads me to believe that you are an imposter, and a spa salesman with a grudge against
consumers who are educated by my writings and materials.
Where is your name?? Where is your Resume, like the one I put on here. Click on my name
and read it.
It is people such as your self that I am trying to remove from the spa industry, by
educating the consumers.
James Arjuna
Topic: As long as you started this, you are going to get it
From: Spa Fellow
Date: Monday, September 16, 2002 06:34 PM
I checked the log of the posters on the site and one of Andrew Harris's fake names came up
at the same time as this guy's post. If he were to ever gain any credibility, he would
have to reveal who he is and his exact credentials, so I can do a check with the
university. Any fool can be anything and be an imposter on the net. The nonsense about
buying an Artesian spa is just to throw off the readers. He is a pool and spa professional
who makes a really poor product.
The reputation of Artesian spas is well known in the spa industry. It is not a good one.
Tell me? What sort of spa shopper would take the time to publish that much incorrect an
not researched information.? A real engineer will use rigorous research to see. They will
check their thermodynamics books and hydraulic books, and electronic books, just like I
do/
Because this guy started this, I am ready to break down piece by piece his utter nonsense
and unscientific information. . He is not an engineer nor even an lay person with advanced
technical knowledge. His attempts at BS is pretty clever though.
First of all. The information used by engineers is not readily available to lay people on
the internet. You have to pay to get into the correct sites (a lot of money), except for
catalog of heater manufacturer's sites such as I listed on my site. You can search all day
and all night and you will not get information on the Thermal Lock or Thermally Closed
design, because they are trade secrets of Coleman Spas and The Spa Specialist. The only
information is on those sites. Both companies have engineers who developed these types of
spas.
I have five books just on the subject of thermodynamics alone.. These are expensive
professional books.
The "ASHRAE HANDBOOK FUNDAMENTALS"; I-P (inch-pound) edition. copyright 1997
The "Trane Air Conditioning Manual", published by The Trane Company. C 1965
"Thermodynamics" By John Francis Lee, Professor of Mechanical Engineering, North
Carolina State College. and Francis Weston Sears, Professor of Physics Dartmouth College.
C 1959
"Heat Transfer" Published by McGraw-Hill Book company.by J.P. Holman, Professor
of Mechanical Engineering, Southern Methodist University.
"Cromalox Electriic Heating Products, Controls and Systems. This is a catalog with a
lot of thermal heat transfer data tables. Engineers use these data tables to determine the
size, watts (BTU) for electric heater based upon the type of materials being heated.
As far as I can tell from reading this guy's post, his reference manual is "Hot Tubs
for Dummys, by I.P. Freeley. professor of guessology at the University of Boliver
Shagnasti. At that university it said that you get a BS at BS university.
So the first part of his nonsense is pretty funny. I have done a lot of research into
electric motors, heat, thermodynamics and electronics. I have years of electronic study.
It is my field. I also have contacted several electronic engineers on my designs.
James Arjuna
Topic: As long as you started this, you are going to get it.
From: Ga. Dog
Date: Monday, September 16, 2002 06:46 PM
"At that university it said that you get a BS at BS university."
James you don't only have a BS (Bull Shit) degree you have a PHD, PILED HIGH & DEEP!
Ga. Dog
Topic: THE MOST IMPORTANT STUFF STARTS HERE!
From: Spa Fellow
Date: Monday, September 16, 2002 08:17 PM
Here is a rebuttal on this guy's waste of digital space.
The IMPOSTER is for Anonymous in the dialog below, because he will not reveal his legal
name, I have to call him something. Most of the folks with degrees in engineering will not
debate me, because, as most are not as experienced in the field of spas and hot tubs as I
am. It is pretty embarrassing when they are made to look like fools with all those
credentials. In their field they my be experts, but in spas, they are lost. br>
IMPOSTER said:
"1) As one person mentioned in the thread check Mr. Arjuna's old posts. In
researching the old posts you can truly see his true character as a person who will say or
doing anything to sell his spas and as Angeloftruth recently pointed out in the thread his
story isn't consistent and varies constantly."
-----------------
Jim A:
My information is always completely repeatable and based upon empirical testing. I would
like for you to give me your test results on how much energy is wasted in a full foam spa.
Try this! Take the spa on a cold day, like 10 degrees above F. Disconnect the heater and
run the spa with the cover off. Tell us how much temperature drop you perceive under
actual testing over an hour, two hours and so on. The facts are that your spa with no
blower will lose heat pretty darn fast, because of the wasted motor heat.
In every test on a Haven Spa with our full insulation, the spa either gains in
temperature, or stays the same, or looses a slight amount of heat, depending on the
surface area and the size of the motor(s), the outside temperature wind and outside
humidity. Almost always the heat generated by the pumps is pretty tremendous. If you want
you can come and I will show you the formulas for heat loss on the surface of the water,
vs the actual heat loss. According to calculations, using data from the watlow.com site
and the Cromalox catalog, the watts of heat from the pumps are very pronounced.
==================
IMPOSTER said:
"2) In his posts he uses the tactic of trying to scare customers by saying usually
one of the following things.
a. The spa is full foam and will freeze if GFI fails and your away.
b. The shell will crack.
c. Full foam costs a fortune to fix a leak.
d. The plumbing is bad and users diverter valves.
e. I have never heard good things about that spa."
Jim A:
All of those statements are based upon my experience working in service at The Colorado
Hot Tub Exchange, Denver Colorado, Mr Pool, Boulder Colorado, and at The Spa Specialist,
as a service manager and service technician. It is a fact that if the power is off and you
are away, the equipment will freeze in a full foam spa in the cold of winter. Some will
freeze faster than others. Once the equipment freezes, the spa will crack open and the
rest of the water will exit the spa via the broken expensive equipment.
It is interesting that this guy will negate my hard earned first hand, one on one with
customers experience. The number of frozen and freeze damaged spas was a lot higher in
percentage than what he "guessed". Out of 15,000 service customer owning all the
brands of spas, about 400 (a bonafied and very conservative guess) of them got some type
of freeze damage. Most of those spas were 5 years or older. Some very little damage others
completely ruined. My all time "favorite" was a large Sundance (Feb 1996). I
took a movie of it and used to show it to spa shoppers when they mentioned the name
Sundance. It was the most ruined spa I have ever seen. The owner got $3,000 dollars
towards the replacement from the insurance. The last time I talked with him, he was
disgusted with spas.
My question for the readers, is even if the odds are 1 in 10,000, why would you want that
sort of odds against you, considering that a thermally closed spa is more energy efficient
and has a much longer down time with no power? 1 in 10,000 is much better than winning 3
bucks in the lotto.
The Hot Tub Exchange also dealt in used spas. Every single used spa we took in trade or
bought outright had freeze damage on it, except for a few very young spas.
Most spas do not freeze in the first five years, but many do. All of them could have been
prevented if the salesman told them to not leave the spa alone in winter and if they had a
few very simple safeguards available to them to retard the freeze damage. A freeze alarm
is now available from Robert's Hot Tubs.
I remember the fall of 95 we had an ice storm in Lakewood Colorado. It took out the power
lines for nearly two weeks. There were hundreds of freeze damaged spas on that one storm.
Not one of them was a Thermal Lock Coleman. The store sold both full foam and Coleman.
===========
IMPOSTER said:
"The reality of the situation is as follows. All major spa companies use full foam
because it has solid science behind it and is proven in the field. In a quick search of
over 78 engineering and physics databases I could only find one article back in 1978 at
Cal Tech that did a study of electrical motors in a thermal enclosure. Bottom-line this is
like comparing apples to oranges and as some in the original thread mentioned it is pseudo
science."
Jim A:
Unfortunately you did not do the right sort of research. You can only gain that
information from Coleman Spas, trade secrets, or from The Spa Specialist, trade secrets to
gain the data. We don't publish the data, because it took grueling research and testing to
come to the conclusions. I am not about to give it away for free, neither is Coleman.
I will however offer the same thing that I offer all people; Bring your IMPOSTER self to
Colorado and I will perform a few tests for your with thermal sensors in the spa for you
to see first hand how it works. Many of our customers are engineers, who seem to have more
understanding of physics than you do.
I have the article by Jon Watkins, from the San Diego newspaper, in which he declares that
he uses the foam so he doesn't have to use fiberglass.
====================
IMPOSTER said:
"Use your common sense if you were building a house and one contractor came to you
and said I'm going to put a thin piece of foil on the inside of your walls instead of 6
inches of installation would you let him? You would tell him where to go and rightfully
so. During my search of the engineering databases there are many articles supporting the
use of full foam as an insulating, soundproofing, and to some extent as an adjutant
structural support. I live up in the Northeast and my old spa is full foam 10 years old
and never froze once nor leaked. Talking with spa repair folk in the Northeast a spa
freezing is a rare occurrence a maybe 1 in 4000 shot, so you should not make this a
consideration in purchasing a spa. Even more interesting was the spa that froze that he
had worked on was an L.A. with the thermal design and the customer hadn't opted for the
full foam option. Also when asked about full foam leaks most spa techs told me it was easy
to fix and about a $500 job but it also was a rare occurrence on any major brand. The only
shell problems I have heard about either by friends or spa techs mostly involved
Hotsprings or D1 and those were mostly after they were 7 or more years old. As an engineer
I happen to agree that using foam as a structural support is a bad idea, which is why I
eliminated Hotspring and D1 off my list. Particularly D1 if you read their warranty you
have to send the spa back starting at year 7 if there is a structural problem with the
shell."
=======
Jim Arjuna:
Man does that sound familiar, just like the sales pitch from the Sundance dealer that I
recorded. The problem is with toady's labor rates of up to $100 per hour, the average full
foam repair is now over $1,000. If you get a copy of my book, I have a detailed
explanation of the process as I learned it from an 11 year veteran Sundance service
manager. Any body who emails me and mentions this post, I will send you a copy via email.
According to two actual independent tests, the Thrmal lock or thermally closed design is
better for electrical efficiency. I have many times now, asked for full foam spa companies
to do a side by side test in Fraser, Colorado to see which spas will cost less, and which
spas freeze faster. Not one of the companies will cooperate and do a side by side
comparison. ===============
IMPOSTER said;
"Also having had a spa for 10 years I can tell you they are like cars. Plan on having
to fix them on occasion because parts do were out just like in cars."
========
Jim Arjuna:
That is why we use standard high quality parts that are not exclusive, because I know what
a rip off "exclusive" parts are. They are usually not as well made as the high
quality standard parts we use.
James Arjuna
Topic: Continuign on the rebuttual with the imposter
From: Spa Fellow
Date: Monday, September 16, 2002 10:13 PM
IMPOSTER said:
"3) Mr. Arjuna in his own posts admits he isn't an engineer with any advanced degrees
and his background is one of a electrician and a spa tech. Given that I wouldn't want him
designing any spa I put my hard earned money into. He apparently feels that he knows more
than the multi million-dollar spa companies who keep a staff of engineers to develop and
over see the manufacturing of their spas. How logical is this?"
================
Jim Arjuna:
Actually I have a lot of engineering background and have worked in engineering trade
shops, apprenticing under master engineers, my brother is one of them. I am not a licensed
engineer, however, I obviously know more about spa engineering that you ever will. One of
my favorite things to do is go into all the details of each part of the spa design,
extremely deeply. I analyze in depth all the methods in use and come to conclusions based
upon all the data and engineering reference manuals from the spa parts factories and from
outside the spa industry. I love to chat with my customer engineers, because they can talk
shop with me.
Actually I do know more about spa engineering than the major manufacturers. That is
obvious just from looking at their designs. How old is that full foam nonsense?? 25 years
now??? The keep selling the same crap for that long with out any major improvements???
Please, God help their vulnerable customers!
For instance, if you go the Watkins web site under job offers, they are looking for
manufacturing engineers, not spa design engineers. They want somebody to figure out easier
and quicker was to build them, not to design better spas. If any company needs to improve
their product it is Hot Spring.
Take some time and read http://www.spaspecialist.com/ANSI1.html It is very interesting.
=====================
IMPOSTER said;
"4) Most large spa companies have designed special heaters, pumps etc and have many
patents and made major develops has Mr. Arjuna done any of these things? Does he have a
single patent or major breakthrough in his name? The answer is NO.
=======================
Jim Arjuna rebuttal:
This one really has me laughing. HA! HA! You silly guy!. They patent things so that they
can have exclusive and expensive parts. It stops after-market folks from building better
replacement parts. All of the readers should go the US government patent and trademark
site and do a search on these asinine patents. Most all of them are ridiculous. There are
a few jet parts that are nice, but you can achieve the same or better with a standard
part.
We are developing a tremendous breakthrough in the Thermally Closed spa design, called the
DAIT (Dynamic Automatic Insulation System). The Patent papers are on the way. This is pure
engineering at its finest, because it is an improvement, not some exclusive parts to sell
at up to five times the price of standard parts.
By the way the design is patent pending but the parts are all available from electronics
supply houses and from building supply and plumbing supply wholesale distributors. I will
never ever screw my customers with parts they can not get any where else.
We contacted the manufacturers of the components to see if our application of their
product follows their engineering guidelines. They all said yes. By the way this is rule
number one in the use of parts according the ANSI. You must have engineering approval from
the manufacturer and use the components EXACTLY as they are intended according to the
manufacturer. (This is where Andy of Rhtubs failed in his use of the suction fittings.)
================
IMPOSTER said;
"5) As someone in the thread mentioned Mr. Arjuna uses generic parts, and his posts
concur, including a heater. Most large spa companies have specially designed heaters
because they don't want to be replacing them under warranty and they want them to last. In
the 10 years that I have had my old spa I had to replace the heater 3 times because it was
a generic heater and the coil was exposed to the water."
=====
Jim Arjuna rebuttal:
Man this guy is the best salesman for Haven Spas I have met on the Internet! We do not use
generic parts. They are all brand name parts that are not bastardized to make them
exclusive.
Like I said in the previous statement above, we use highest quality standard parts from
the same manufacturers that the "big boys" use, only, we don't bastardize the
parts and put a logo on them. All of the major spa companies buy their heaters from heater
manufacturers. Duh! We use the latest greatest "no-fault" style of heater from
Aquatemp (Patent # 5,978.550). It is embedded in epoxy and teflon, so it has no metal
contact with water. However, it is not and exclusive part. Our customers can purchase them
anywhere. Since I started in service and repair on spas, I will not inflict exclusive
parts on my customers. It gets real expensive when you have only one place to get the
parts from.
=========================
IMPOSTER. said:
"6) After looking over the Phoenix information I can vouch for it being a cheap
design and the pictures of the factory do not make me want to be buying from them anytime
in the future."
=======================
Jim Arjuna rebuttal:
When I first discovered Phoenix, I was looking for a manufacturer who knew what they were
doing. The Phoenix guy stopped by The Spa Specialist Inc store and dropped of photos of
the backs of the spas in the construction process. Since all of my needs are at the nuts
and bolts level, I examined the photos with a magnifier to see the details. That was what
got me to the factory to see the actual production areas. They were using all the methods
I like on the cabinet, on the basic plumbing, and had good electronic controls. They were
using solid PVBC in a limited way.
Man do I love you. You are helping me and Phoenix out a lot here.
Pay careful attention on this:
If you want to build a much better product, one in which you do not have to short cut the
product, then you build it in a "low rent district". The Phoenix factory is in
super shape and all of the buildings have been inspected and remodeled as needed. They
have extended the manufacturing areas and have put in all the OSHA approved safety
equipment, including a air treatment room for the fiberglass areas.
The only difference is the facility is a rebuilt wood mill. The area around the factory is
pretty much a lower economic area of California, where you can still buy 35 acres for
$35,000. This gives us a much better employee base from which to choose and the employees
want to keep their jobs, so they work better. Some of the employees have been with Rob for
15 years or more, from the old factory.
I have visited the factory many times and I do enjoy watching the spa in progress. It is
all the best materials, methods and equipment.
As one of my customers said after he purchased a Super Custom Fallsburg from us. "Our
Fallsburg is the equivalent to a $15,000 spa."
I agree. I have not seen anything even close to it from the other companies. We literally
have no competition.
Thanks for helping me with that part that I usually share in private with spa shoppers.
You are great at helping the shoppers on this site.
===================
IMPOSTER Said:
"7) As Mr. Arjuna says in his post he is a family run company. This translates to a
company with little financial backing behind him. So this means he can be out of business
at anytime and with only a couple of years in the business I would not be putting my hard
earned money into a spa that I can't see over the internet."
======================
Jim Arjuna rebuttal:
I love this one!! We have close to 7 years in the spa business as The Spa Specialist inc.
We have an impeccable record with the BBB and are proud to post the BBB logo on our site.
It represents a no hype approach to advertising. The BBB does not allow any hype or
puffery on a site with their logo.
We started with $60,000 dollars, which by all business standards is not enough. By careful
planing and by the use of the following Corporate bylaws; "We pledge to offer the
highest level of quality products, and highest possible customer service at a
profit."
The first thing is accomplished, The second thing is accomplished and if the last thing is
not accomplished the first two don't count..
That is business 101. We have all three and are still healthy in this poor economy. I get
phone calls all day long with people wanting our spas.
We have a different sort of business. We only seem to have the highest level of customers.
Like I have said many times most are engineers and all most likely have more common sense
than you do, A.S.S.
We protect our customers from the remote possibility of our business going away by:
1/ Producing the best products. Even if we fail as a business, long after we would be gone
our products will still be running.
2/ We use only standard parts, even in our DAIT system.
3/ We pass the warranty through the from the factory to the customer, so if we are gone
any remaining warranty will be covered by Phoenix. They are not as well set up to handle
out of state warranty concerns, so it will take longer, but they are covered.
I am an ethical person, and I love and care about how my actions affect the customers who
support us. I would be remiss, if I were to furnish a spa that could not be repaired with
standard parts. I have been in the service end of the spa industry for a long time now,
and I have had to work on spas that you cannot get parts for. It is not a good legacy for
a spa company to not have parts available..
One spa company that was 40 years old went out of business and your can't get parts for
the control system. We would never do that to our friends.
If Watkins were to go under, which is likely if they don't make a better product soon, it
would be a big tragedy for Hot Spring owners, because they have cheap and exclusive parts.
Thanks, for asking that question!!!!
==================
A.S.S said:
"8) In looking over the old posts in the archives Mr. Arjuna doesn't really talk
about spa design he uses that as an excuse to start up his sales banter. So no I won't be
getting into a spa engineering design discussion with you Mr. Arjuna just so you can try
another sales pitch. Besides as a professional engineer I find it insulting that you can
even consider yourself at my level without a single advanced degree to your credit. I'm
not wasting my time and I'm sure no other professional engineer is as well. That is the
real reason why people are not entering into debates with you. A debate is between equals
and you by your own admission don't qualify."
======================
Jim Arjuna rebuttal:
I feel sorry for anybody with such a weak sense of self worth as you seem to have. I have
found that my worth comes from being a loving and caring person to my family and all my
associations.
It is my passion for spas that makes me love what I do. I have found that people who love
what they do, seem to do it a lot better than those with a dry meaningless life, such as
yours. Your sense of self worth is attached to some piece of paper that you got by not
falling asleep in class. (although from your ignorant posts, you must have missed a lot.
Like you are an imposter.). I have many customers who are real engineers.
I can remember a particular story about an automotive engineer who flew in to wet test. He
was already scheduled to fly to Broomfield to go to an engineering seminar there at
Interlocken, (about five minutes from our store). He had already put down a payment on a
Hot Spring Landmark when he found my site.
On his flight over he was on a plane full of engineers and he began passing around my
writings for them to evaluate. They all said that it made sound engineering sense, but
that he needed to see how it was implimented.
He is now the proud owner of a Super Custom Fallsburg at his home near Detroit. Sandy and
I visited his home on our way to deliver a spa in Windser Ontario, Canada. His postings
can be seen over at our message board. Do a serach for postings by "Leo". He has
a lot of very interesting comments.
Here is the challenge. Get yourself. over to my site and I will love to destroy your pet
theories in a debate on spa engineering! You will be embarrassed by the time I am done.
.
Before you go spouting off like an arrogant fool, you need to understand who you are
dealing with.
Thanks for helping me teach the readers about Haven Spas.
James Arjuna
Topic: Continuign on the rebuttual with A.S.S.
From: Anonymous ()
Date: Monday, September 16, 2002 10:53 PM
"If Watkins were to go under, which is likely if they don't make a better product
soon"
ha ha ha ha ho ho ha
Watkins Manufacturing is a nine BILLON dollar a year, publicly traded company.
Topic: Continuign on the rebuttual with A.S.S.
From: Spa Fellow
Date: Monday, September 16, 2002 11:57 PM
On 9/16/2002 10:53:53 PM, Anonymous wrote:
>"If Watkins were to go under,
>which is likely if they don't
>make a better product soon"
>
>ha ha ha ha ho ho ha
>
>Watkins Manufacturing is a
>nine BILLON dollar a year,
>publicly traded company.
>
You need to keep up with the stock market! It has not been doing so well lately, in case
you missed that.
Phoenix and Haven is a private corporation.
The bigger they are the harder they fall!
James Arjuna
Topic: Continuitn the Rebuttal with the IMPOSTER
From: Spa Fellow
Date: Monday, September 16, 2002 11:47 PM
IMPOSTER Said;
"9) If the person who started this post is right about the people owning Phoenix
going bankrupt before, than its highly probable they will do the same thing again and is
indicated, by all the people on the forums complaining about problems and Phoenix not
honoring their warranty. This also would mean as Haven Customer you would be left high and
dry because Mr. Arjuna would also be forced to go bankrupt."
============================
Jim Arjuna rebuttal;
I believe that I already answered this, so I don't understand your double use of this same
uninformed nonsense. All it is doing is spreading rumors that are totally false. The
factory is extremely busy, because they are making a very good product, one that is a lot
better value than any of the large corporate spa companies. The Phoenix factory has shown
continual growth over the last several years with an increase of over 30% in the year 2000
alone. I suggest that you go by the factory and see just how busy they are.
Go back and read the last post.
Phoenix does honor the warranty. Just not as fast as we take care of the customers.
Actually we have a whole other means of income with our "fix-em-all" service
center and our Emerald Spa Sales. I never put all my eggs in one basket.
We have found a couple of other factories willing to build Haven Spas. It took a while ,
but there is one in Denver. You will be seeing some new molds with our equipment and
plumbing designs soon. Possible by next year.
I have not seen any valid posts by Phoenix customers, except for some satisfied ones on
the "what's the best hot tubs" message board. There is a fellow who posted on
how much he liked his Cortez model.
There is some silly guy named John who bought a stolen Coronado from some relative of his.
The spa was never paid for at the factory. He let the pumps freeze, then got a lawyer to
insist that the spa be fixed. Is that what you are talking about?
In case you are freshly born to this world (You must have been born yesterday!); It take
all kinds to make up the totality of humanity. Even Hitler was a human being, remember?
Take yourself for instance. You are a cynical, negative person, with ill intent as far as
I can tell. the weak negative guy who is so afraid to use his real name and posts as
anonymous.
Any hot tub professional who posts as anonymous or several other fictitious names,
certainly has no credibility. Only a fool would listen to you, but you do give me a good
devil to debate and help my cause.
I am enjoying this a great deal!!
I love exposing foolish, negative, ignorant folks like you.
============================
A.S.S. Said;
"10) Mr Arjuna apparently thinks that all the major spa companies are out to get him.
How logical is this? Multi million dollar companies that have teams of engineers and
patents and that are selling thousands of spas are worried about a small family run
business by a electrician/spa repair guy. If this isn't paranoid I don't know what is!
This would cause me to question Mr. Arjuna's mental stability."
===================
Jim Arjuna rebuttal;
Actually the major spa companies such as Hot Spring, and D1 have expressed their fear of
me. They have begged me to stop. They have threatened legal action. They have tried to
scare me into stopping.
All this does is feed my fire to destroy the ignorance in the spa industry. I am glad that
I am having a positive effect on the spa industry. One that will make them wake up and
reform their out of date ideas.
My favorite was the pleading email from the son of one of the founders of Hot Spring. I
still have the email. He was a nice fellow. He begged me to stop in the name of one family
to another. My answer was for them "to build a better product". I actually would
love to see them build a better product, one that conforms to the ANSI.
http://www.spaspecialist.com/ANSI1.html
=======================
IMPOSTER said:
"11) How logical is it be buying a 3-14k spa over the Internet from a person who
promises to service you where ever you live? I don't know about the other readers, but I
want a local dealer that I can go to deal with."
=======================
Jim Arjuna Rebuttal:
In order for you to get a Haven Spa, there is only one way to get it. I am sorry but I
tried to have dealers, and they did not understand the meaning of customer service and the
meaning of the word "WORK". It seems that folks think they can ride on the coat
tails of the Haven web sites and make lots of money, without putting in long hard hours,
like I do. If you want something, you need to work for it. If you want a Haven spa you
have to do homework to get it. We have a business plan that gets rid of most folks like
you. The real researchers and intelligent folks are what we want for customers. They spend
hours reading and studying our site. These are the smartest shoppers in the world in my
opinion. The don't lay down for some sleazy slick "nice" spa salesman, as you
did. The smart shoppers will realize that the guy selling the spa is on commission and
money makes people do some pretty bad things. The even will appear as nice honest sincere
people, but still sell junky spas..
If you really want to know why people buy our Haven Spas you could ask them. We have
plenty of loyal customers ready to tell you the facts about why they bought a Haven Spa.
How about Fiona Ford in Scotland? She is a prime example of someone fed up with ignorant
sales people, spinning their "yarns".
=========================
A.S.S said:
"12) As someone pointed out Mr. Arjuna has placed close to 1500 posts on this board
alone. This indicates to me personally that his motive is purely to direct people over to
his site in the hopes of making a sale. Not a good sign of a legitimate person."
===============================
Jim Arjuna Rebuttal:
Let's see. I think it is a sign of a dedicated person. A person who is dedicated to the
world to share valuable information. Also, one who enjoys what he does with a passion.
Please tell me what a legitimate person is? My mom and dad were married! Damn if you ain't
funny with your greatly stretched imagination. You are a cynical fool. You have never met
a real caring person in your life. You think that all people are like yourself, phony and
lead with nonsense, ego and pride, instead of passion and love for life.
I must make you angry at yourself, for having the joy of doing something I love and people
pay me for it. That must upset you deeply. Keep in mind that an educated consumer is a
better consumer. The more you guys spread hate, in my direction the more people are
wondering why. They more they wonder, the more people will end up getting educated and
buying something that is safer, better made and a better value.
If you want to be like me, you have to find God as the first and foremost thing in life.
God is the "1" in front of the zeros (0's) that give them meaning. People like
you have no morals and believe in fairy tails like evolution. The first step towards
spiritual freedom is to rid yourself of guilt and shame. The only way to stop that is by
telling the truth all the time, caring for others more than yourself and sharing the truth
with others.
I have been a man of science all my life, and I have never seen a thread of evidence that
any species evolved from another species. I have seem idiots making false theories. To me
that is total darkness and delusion.
===============================
IMPOSTER. said;
"13) He accuses Dr. Spa of building death traps. I find this disgusting and
unprofessional. Dr. Spa has done nothing but help numerous people on his forum. This alone
would make me question Mr. Arjuna's integrity and mental state."
==========================
Jim Arjuna rebuttal;
This is an easy one. Doc, Andrew Harris of Robert's Hot Tubs, himself, admitted that he
has not follow the ANSI standard for safety. He broke the prime rule of all the ANSI
standards. "Always follow the manufacturer's instructions for any piece of equipment
used in a Spa or Hot Tub"; paraphrased. He admitted that he never contacted the
suction fitting company before he started using a wall fitting on the floor of his wood
tub diagrams. He finally contacted them(after about 25 YEARS!!!!) after I pointed out that
he can't use them. I contacted the manufacturer first and asked them. They said;
"NO!" He is a damn fool for doing that.
I had a long talk with the manufacture and they do not recommend using those fittings on
the floor at all. A true floor suction is an entirely different device. The manufacture
has just been sued for a pool main drain that trapped someone. They are not about to back
some wood tub guy in California. They will drop him like a lead balloon as soon as someone
dies in his tubs. I can't wait to see how far they put themselves from Andy when someone
is killed of suffers brain damage. However they will continue to sell the parts to him as
long as he is around.
Thank you for helping me with that point. I just hope that Andy wakes up before someone
gets killed. The odds are not good. I did a study and it is about 1 in 7,000 of these
death traps that kill people. He is running out of time fast. For his sake and the sake of
his family, I hope he sends out a retrofit fix to all his customers.
I have no ill will towards Andy, I think he is most likely a good man, but he is an
ignorant one, in my opinion.
==================================
IMPOSTER.Said;
"14) The fact the Mr. Arjuna admits to being banned from forums is not a good
indicator either. You have to do some pretty bad things to banned from a forum."
===================================
Jim Arjuna Rebuttal;
Yea! Right! The only thing I had to do on Andy's site was to question his belief that full
foam was better at insulating that a thermally closed designed spa. When I told Doctor
Spa, Andy Harris, that I was going to get my brother the senior engineer over to explain
it to him, I was banned from his message board. That was funny. Then he came over to my
message board and insulted my wife, like a fool. Man, don't ever insult a man's wife or
kids. That is as low as it gets.
What ever you do with Andy Harris, don't give him facts that destroy his credibility with
his (guru like) followers. He has no understanding of thermodynamics in reference to spas.
He sells himself as an "expert" witness in trials involving hot tubs and spas.
What a joke, he builds his tubs with no skimmer and puts the wall fittings on the floor,
like the half baked "expert" he is.
If you want to be banned from "What's the best" all you have to do is tell the
owner that he is a rip off artist if he expects any body to pay a dollar for a click
through on a banner ad. Hell. Nobody looks at those adds any way. And if you look, you
will see that nobody advertises there either. I have a way with words. I just tell it like
it is and if you don't like it don't be so stupid as you were to post this crap.
On the Waternet site Betty has asked me to come over an liven it up a bit. I don't like
the clique over there much, very boring.
On the Bravenet board that guy is so dumb that OGI guy. I can't believe he professes to be
on the consumer side, and he doesn't want me to post on safety issues. I guess he has a
vested interest in out dated spas.
His board dies when I don't post on it. Just like this one did for a while when I took a
break.
My all time favorite was the NSPI site. They shut down the whole message board because of
me. The NSPI is impotent at policing the members and is constantly being sued for it. They
do not even scold Watkins for their flagrant disregard for the ANSI standard, and they
wonder why they are being sued?
It is an honor to be banned by those worthless sites with hidden agendas and are not
willing to discuss spa design!
P.S.
I can't be banned anyway. You would have to shut down the board, because all you need is
another IP, like I can't get a few hundred of those??? Ha! Ha!
============================
IMPOSTER said;
"15) If you do read Mr. Arjuna's web site while he does have some simple engineering
concepts which he uses as a sales pitch, it is heavily slanted towards the Haven/Phoenix
spa so it isn't an independent source of information as claimed."
=============================
Jim Arjuna rebuttal:
Actually most of the stuff is common engineering principles found in most any resource
that engineers use. As my brother says: "I didn't invent this stuff. It is in all the
engineering reference text book and manuals."
That is why so many of our customers are engineers. If you were a real engineer, you would
understand it very easily.
==============================
IMPOSTER. said:
"16) I agree with the person in thread that stated if Mr. Arjuna was so dedicated he
would be building his own spas instead of making minor modifications to the poorly
designed Phoenix spas."
=================================
Jim Arjuna Rebutal:
Actually, you see it is a matter of standard accounting principles. If you want a good
product, you find someone who is almost there and have them build it your way.
When I met Rob, he was darn serious about not making the same mistake that hurt his old
business. He was totally adamant about using 2x4 framing, 56 frame Magnetek motors and
acrylic with vinyl ester resin and hand rolled fiberglass. I first discovered his spas
when some fellow dropped of some photos of the backs of the spas being built. I looked at
the photos with a magnifying glass and studied carefully every detail. I was impressed,
very impressed! All that I saw was standard well known and first class construction and
materials.
I called up the factory and asked to take a tour of the factory. After the tour, I asked
them if he could make the spas my way using my drawings and my equipment details. The
answer was, "Yes!" and Haven Spas were born.
I have a lot of confidence in the manufacturing now, after nearly four years of continual
improvements.
To start a low volume spa factory is ridiculous. You either go all the way or have
somebody else build them. It is much more reasonable to use a factory with several
thousands of spas per year. It saves our customers money right now and the Phoenix quality
has been excellent. There is no secret to why they are probably the fastest growing spa
factory in the world.
I will be answering your other questions later.
James Arjuna
Topic: Continuitn the Rebuttal with the phoney engineer.
From: Spa Fellow
Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 03:43 AM
I have to tell you that this is just too predictable for me. The more of this I read and
answer the better I feel. It is a hard thing to carry all of this information on suctions
and entrapment.
In these next question/statements, this guy really shows how much he is not an engineer.
And he reveals that he is indeed Andy Harris from Robert's Hot tubs. For days I have been
baiting him into doing this. I know him very well, better than he knows himself. That is
why. I see that he and his StarWars figure BS name is on the board right now.
There is information on these last paragraphs that are a dead give away to Doctor Spa,
Andy Harris.
=================
IMPOSTER said:
"17) Mr. Arjuna is very adapt at taking a particular theme and using at as a sales
pitch. His latest one is the ANSI standard. What he fails to tell everyone just like in
the IEEE standards committee various companies come together and agree on a certain
specification, how that specification is interpreted and implemented is up to the
particular company involved. In other words all major spa companies follow ANSI
standards."
===============================
Jim Arjuna Rebuttal:
This is the same utter nonsense that Andy Harris always uses as a defense for his terribly
dangerous hot tubs. "The ANSI is only a recommendation." Yea! Right????? Subject
to interpretation. Not. It says clearly to put the skimmer in the wall and the suction on
the wall of the foot well. AND IT SAYS TO FOLLOW THE MANUFACTURER'S INSTURCTIONS FOR USING
ANY DEVICE.
Andy, please tell me again, which one of the advisors from the ANSI would you not want to
listen to? Is it the guy from the Trauma Center, who has to deal with victims from hot tub
makers? Is it the fire department that has to respond to people dying in pools and spas?
Take a look at the names on the list and tell me how much smarter than all of those people
you are? How many people have you rescued from life and death situations???
How about all the insurance representatives who have to pay for your mistakes.
You have to be the dumbest hot tub professional I have ever met.
According to engineers, the first place a designer goes to;; is the ANSI to see what
standards pertain to the device the engineer is designing. They all know that if you kill
someone and your device does not conform to the ANSI, you will not have a leg to stand on.
In your case you don't have any legs to stand on.
Let me make this perfectly clear. When someone's child dies in your hot tub, you will be
charged with "Criminal Manslaughter", "Criminal Negligence" or
whatever is the equivalent terms in your state, because you were told by another spa
professional and the fitting company that you can't do that. It is on record on several
message boards and in my correspondence to you.
You will not be able to simply file bankruptcy. You will go to jail for a long time. How
is that going to set with your boy, to see his dad in prison?
You need to consider this as friendly advice. Caring advice. I am a father as well. I
can't imagine how it would be to only see a child on "visiting day", but you
will if you continue to not do a safety recall to all your customers.
I have prepared a complete essay and took photos to demonstrates how dangerous your wood
tub design is. I am prepared with a lot of technical data to present it to any judge in a
way they can understand.
In California, right now are bills being discussed about suction fitting in pools and
spas. It is a hot item right now, because of somebody who lost a child as I recall. If I
were to go to the state of California today, they would shut you down and force you to
send out a recall.
Is that what I have to do? This must be awfully hard for you. You need to come to your
senses and get real. Your pride is not as important as a human life. Your pride is not
worth going to jail for.
I know that you wrote all of this. You are the only one on the message board when this was
posted. I know your writing style. I know you. Nobody is compulsive enough to put together
all of this garbage but you, Andy.
Only you would know about the tripod site and the private information.
Only you would write that the ANSI is not to be followed. Only you would dodge all my
direct questions about wood tub suctions.
You told me that you have thousands of those tubs out there with the old design and the
old fittings. There isn't much time. Any day now your are going to kill someone. It will
happen according to all the statistics.
You need to see that I am the best friend you ever had. Unfortunately, you will only find
that out after someone dies.
You need to put in a skimmer and put the wall fitting on the wall! You need to follow the
ANSI standards.
This is serious as a "heart attack", my friend.
This message is why I have been drawing you out on these message boards for the last few
days.
===========================
IMPOSTER said:
"18) On the specification for the Fallsburg http://www.spaspecialist.com/falls.html
it rates the horsepower of the Fallsburg as 5BHP or brake horse power. Brake horsepower
happens as the motor starts up and lasts less than a second. What needs to be considered
is continuous horsepower not brake horse power. Talking about brake horsepower is a way of
deceiving the customer away from the actual horsepower rating. Talking with a couple of
hydro engineers before I began my spa journey they advised me to sure that there are no
more than 5 jets per 1 continuous horse power for maximum therapy. So again in Mr.
Arjuna's own site we have deliberate deception going on. If we make the assumption that
his pumps are really 3HP continuous than with 42 jets and 2 pumps we can see that the
Fallsburg would fail the test of providing good therapy, since the rule would only allow
for 30 jets max this would put him 12 over the limit. This rule can also be applied to
other spa brands."
======================================
Jim Arjuna rebuttal:
Actually I made a mistake in calling it "Brake Horsepower". Golly! I just have
not fixed it on the site. It is really standard Horsepower. These Executive pumps are
different. If you do the math on the HP watts, you will see that it comes to 5 HP.
240 volts at 16.4 AMPS = 3936 watts.
748 watts equals one HP. 3936 watts divided by 748 watts = 5.26 HP. there is a "power
factor" that drops the HP under 5 a little.
The pumps move over 200 GPM, you go figure?
If you are really an engineer, then why are you listening to old wives tales from the spa
professionals. That is a dead giveaway, Andy.
I have talked with nearly a thousand engineers over the past five years. They call me and
buy spas. None of them are dumb enough to listen to the "number of jets" bull
crap.
For the readers, here is the truth in this.
According to the jet manufacturer's data on the size and gallons per minute of each jet at
different PSI, pounds per square inch, you calculate the number of jets based upon the
actual flow of the pump and the numbers of jets of various sizes. Not all jets are the
same size orifice. We use a mix from 1/2 (large pulsators) inch down to 1/8 of an inch (on
the "bullet" jets). If you go to the manufacturer's data and follow their
instructions, you will see that we can actually add a few more jets if we want and still
be above the minimum flow for all of the jets. You, have to, of course take into account
the "dynamic head loss" from the plumbing fixtures.
I hope that clears that up for you? You can't possibly be and engineer and not know
that??? That is basic. Another give away, Andy.
========================
IMPOSTER said;
"19) Again if you look at the specifications for the Fallsburg it is only using two
filters. If we assume for the moment that we get a super custom Fallsburg with a 24 hour
circulating pump so we can compete with larger spa manufactures than that leaves a serious
problem with filtration since each pump would need a separate filter. In other words 3
pumps 3 filters if you want continuous filtration particularly when you're in the spa.
This means that Mr. Arjunas spas have bypass the filtration when the therapy pumps are on,
or in other words when you need the filtration the most. Not a good thing in my opinion.
Most major spa manufactures would never bypass the filtration."
=========================
Jim Arjuna rebuttal:
You obviously do not know anything about our spas filtering. First of all. All of the new
models have four filters equaling 200 Square feet of filter fiber. While the bather is in
the spa they can have up to 200 Gallons per minute of filtering if that is what they want.
That is more filtering that any other spa on the face of the earth, except a Phoenix or
another Haven. We have a modified version of that on the Vista Models.
If you bought an Artesian, you are not getting enough filtering, in my opinion.
The filter is still on a bypass, because that is the "law" of the filter
manufacturers. You simply cannot have a completely blocked suction unless the filters are
281 Square feet, or there a bouts.
=========================
IMPOSTER. said;
"20) In Mr. Arjuna's older posts talking about Erik he used terms and language that I
as a customer would not like to be used in reference to myself. The fact that anyone would
talk that way about a customer is totally unprofessional. Regardless of what happened I
have to believe there is some truth to Erik's experience with Mr. Arjuna and you never,
ever talk about a customer the way Mr. Arjuna talks about Erik."
==================================
Jim Arjuna rebutttal;
Erik is not a customer, he never intended to be one by his behavior. If you want him for a
customer, you should take him. I will not put up with threats from some guy who threatened
me and my family. I simply told him very politely that he has very poor human relationship
skills and we want our spa back. I told him he is an unreasonable customer.
He is not the first, by the way. None of these guys are allowed to buy Haven Spas.
I can remember this one fool came into my store and told me that if I didn't pay for his
electrical install and give him a $300 electrical GFCI that I would be sorry.
We told him to go away, and gave him his money back right there. It took me all of 1
second to decide to boot him from our family of Haven owners. I certainly will not deal
with unreasonable people for the duration of a warranty.
I can remember a fellow threatened me when I was the service manager of the Colorado Hot
Tub Exchange. He told me that if we didn't get out and fix his spa right now, he was going
to ruin my life.
I told him that he was on the schedule right after another important customer and that we
are fair to all of our customer on a first come first serve basis. Good bye!
He called my boss and told him that I was drinking on the job. He called the sales manager
and told him is was on drugs.
I called Coleman the manufacture of the product and asked them what to do. The president
of Coleman said, that I did not have to fix his spa at all if he is harassing me and
threatening me.
I told my boss that I was going to file criminal charges against the jerk, so he better do
something right away. My boss called the customer and told him to find another service
company to fix the spa.
That was that.
I do not have any tolerance for abusive jerks, such as this fellow Erik. You all know the
story by now. We had a criminal investigator contact Erik by email. He told me to stay
clear of that guy, Erik, because he may kill my family or something.
How would you like to get that report?
The Erik Saga is basically the spewing of a sick mind. If you are anything like Erik, I am
so glad that I don't ever have to deal with your sick mind as a customer
=============================
IMPOSTER said;
"21) The fact that someone took the time to start up the Tripod web sight as a
warning to other people should cause a little red light to light up about Mr. Arjuna and
the fact he tried to get it shut down doesn't help the situation."
====================
Jim Arjuna rebuttal;
I have a great memory and Andy Harris who has the most to deal with when it comes to me,
has a copy of the Erik saga and the other posts. I know that he is the one who asked Erik
if he could save a copy "just in case he needed it".
So, there you have it. How did you know that the Tripod site is scheduled for seizure. You
must have inside information. It is just a matter of time. Only Andy Harris is privy to
that information. Andy Harris is the only one with a copy of the Eirk Sage in it's
complete form. He is the one who put up the tripod site after I exposed to the world the
dangers of his wooden tub plumbing.
===========================
IMPOSTER said; (all this bull crap)
"Anyway I think that I have stated my reasons clearly why I personally would never
buy a Haven/Phoenix spa. What spa did I end up buying? Well after the person who started
this thread led me to the Artesian web sight. I was impressed with what I saw and went to
my local Artesian dealer and was even more impressed with professionalism and engineering
knowledge of the dealer. The dealer has been in business for 20 years. We literally took a
Piper Glen apart so I could see and understand the engineering involved. Then we put it
back together and my wife and I wet tested it. They also have the best warranty that I
have seen so far including a lifetime shell warranty, which isn't pro-rated, and I have
looked at 10 different spas to date. Artesian has raised the bar for other spa companies
with their new Directflo pumps at each therapy seat. What this means is that instead of
going from one the main therapy pumps to 2 or more seats via plumbing and manifolds, the
pump is directly attached to the manifold of the therapy seat giving it incredible
therapy. Also because of the new motor design you can adjust the intensity of the massage
to your liking directly on the motor without diverter valves. This is an incredible break
through for the spa industry and will leave a lot of competition in the dust including
Haven/Phoenix spas, although pretty much everyone else does in my opinion anyway. So yes I
bought an Artesian Piper Glen this weekend and no I would never consider buying Haven spa
for reasons cited above."
=======================
Jim Arjuna rebuttal;
I want to thank you for helping me with my message here. You have been great. No engineer
could ever be as ignorant as you are. I don't think an average person is as ignorant about
common sense things, like listening to spa salesmen about pumps and number of jets. You
are as illiterate about common engineering principles as anybody I have ever met.
I sometimes tell my wife, Sandy, that I can't believe how ignorant people can be and when
they think they are clever, and they are not. When it comes to understanding motives of
spa professionals, like yourself, posting as some fictitious "engineer from
MIT", that is so ridiculous. You don't have even good grammar, or writing skills. How
long did it take you to write that gibberish? I'll bet you put it through the spelling
checker twice and had your wife edit the English. It sounds just like a lawyer edited it.
Tell your wife that she needs to read the ANSI standards and advise you to heed the safety
instruction there. .
On the net you post as Anonymous. In God's eye you are in full view. According to God's
laws, you will pay for your sins, including this one of deception and lies.
God's laws are immutable.
I wish you well.
You have been a great help in my cause to rid the world of crappy spas.
James Arjuna
Topic: Continuitn the Rebuttal with the phoney engineer.
From: Anonymous ()
Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 06:43 AM
Wow James talk about proven someone's point! By replying to the originators post which in
my opinion was very polite, thoughtful and verifiable by a well educated person. Your
reply's are insulting, misdirecting, and the originator forgot to mention your new sales
tactic which is lets scare everyone about the safety of spas. Point us to one independent
study that proves people were injured by any major manufactures spa? The bottom line here
James is that a well educated consumer caught you with your pants down and then you help
him/her prove their point. Another brilliant piece of work by James Arjuna (PHD} BS
University for poor desperate con men. Do you really think that a well educated person
such as who wrote this post is going to go over to your forum and debate you there where
you totally control and moderate everything? As he/she stated your reply's prove your
uneducated and not even in their league. But I do want to thank you for laughs you just
gave me. I haven't seen so much BS from you in a long time. Once again the world famous
James Arjuna proves his desperation and ignorance for the world to see!
Topic: Continuitn the Rebuttal with the phoney engineer.
From: britlynn
Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 08:23 AM
Based on this site and the tripod site I wouldn't buy anything from this Jim Arjuna guy.
And I am truly just a spa consumer, nothing more nothing less.
Topic: Continuitn the Rebuttal with the phoney engineer
From: SpaBuyer2002
Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 10:24 AM
Oh my god! What an insulting, vulgar, misdirecting, and uneducated reply to one of the
better posts I have seen on this board. This guy James Arjuna has proven every word of the
original posters post! As a person looking for a spa I would never buy a Haven spa after
reading this post. Who in their right mind would ever want to be one of your customers?
James Arjuna instead of praying for the poster, pray for yourself, because anyone reading
this post would never buy one of your spas!
Topic: Continuitn the Rebuttal with the phoney engineer.
From: Anonymous ()
Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 01:07 PM
James in response to how long it took this obviously well educated person to post probably
about 20 minutes. However I see from your time stamps you were up all night supporting
this post with your BS! James he nuked you, for all the world to see and then you
reinforced all his reasoning. You pushed the button and blew yourself up!
Topic: Continuitn the Rebuttal with the phoney engineer.
From: DawnR
Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 04:30 PM
Hi,
Being new to this forum I just wanted to say I was shocked and saddened to see James
Arjuna's reply to a very intelligent post. My husband and I are thinking about getting a
spa so I have been poking around trying to find information. What I find is as someone
else said a vulgar, insulting, misdirecting reply to a valid post. What scares me most is
that as a psychologist I can tell you James Arjuna's replies deeply reflect psychotic
paranoia. This scares me deeply and I would highly advise this man to seek psychological
help as quickly as possiable. We would never consider buying his spas based on this post,
and I haven't even done the research the originator suggested!
Topic: Continuitn the Rebuttal with the phoney engineer.
From: Smitty2
Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 05:43 PM
This is James best work yet. I was shocked to see him devote so much time to this rebutal.
Go back and read the Erik Chronicals if you haven't already. James is like a fine wine,
his stories get better with age.
Topic: Continuitn the Rebuttal with the phoney engineer.
From: Spa Fellow
Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 08:59 PM
The problem for the readers is that this guy is not an engineer and he is not polite. If
you find this offensive, then wait until doc goes to prison. To me and my associates,
there is nothing worse that some fool who is bringing more negativity to the spa industry
by producing more statistics for the US Government Consumer Products Safety Commission.
I am actually going to get out of the sales all together and form a new institute
dedicated to getting rid of dangerous and poorly designed Spas and Hot Tubs.
I really despise imposters. If you readers are so gullable as to believe this guy is an
engineer, then well I have some land to sell you in Florida. Underwater.
If you don't believe me, it is your loss. You need to understand the level of ignorance in
the spa industry and the danger associated with it, both physical but also in rip off spas
being pawned off on ignorant folks like you.
God Help you, if you don't understand. This guy IMPOSTER is a hot tub professional with a
lot of lies.
James Arjuna
Topic: Continuitn the Rebuttal with the phoney engineer.
From: Angel of Truth
Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 09:34 PM
Quotes from James Arjuna. Translated by one that understands him and his nature all too
well.
"The problem for the readers is that I am not an engineer and I am not polite. If you
find this offensive, then wait until I goes off to prison for a longer time."
I am actually going to get out of the sales all together and form a new institute
dedicated to getting rid of dangerous and poorly designed Spas and Hot Tubs. I'll start
with the most dangerous of all which is Haven. That'll teach me!
I really despise imposters like me. If you readers are so gullable as to believe I am
qualified as an engineer, then well I have some land to sell you in Florida. Underwater.
If you don't believe me, it is your loss. Of course I lie so much I can't blame you. You
need to understand the level of ignorance in the spa industry and the danger associated
with it, both physical but also in rip off spas being pawned off on ignorant folks like
you. The reason I call you all ignorant is because I can understand being ignorant. I have
been ignorant for over 50 years now. I will continue to be and I excel at it. Nobody is
ignoranter than me.
God Help you, if you don't understand. I am a hot tub professional with a lot of lies.
James Arjuna"
Topic: I see that I have touched a nerve with you Dave!
From: Spa Fellow
Date: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 12:19 AM
That was really funny, and I mean the best work your anger has done in a while.
I am actually starting a book that shows many of these posts from the professionals on
this board and others.
I got some great posts off the Bravenet lately. Man that was fun to see that sleazy guy
squirm until 3 am, then get back up at 6.
I had his message board so messed up, I though he was going to have a heart attack.
Man that was funny. What an utter idiot that guy is.
Sandy and I get a lot of laughs out of these fools.
James Arjuna
Topic: Continuitn the Rebuttal with the phoney engineer.
From: Spa Fellow
Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 09:33 PM
On 9/17/2002 5:43:50 PM, Smitty2 wrote:
>This is James best work yet. I
>was shocked to see him devote
>so much time to this rebutal.
>Go back and read the Erik
>Chronicals if you haven't
>already. James is like a fine
>wine, his stories get better
>with age.
>
Thank you for your realization that this is a sort of educational humor going on here.
The funny thing about humor, it only works when there is truth in it.
Jim Arjuna
Topic: Continuitn the Rebuttal with the phoney engineer.
From: Dmt123
Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 11:43 PM
I have not been on this board for a while and by reading over a few posts I can see I have
not missed much. It still seems to be Jim (a.k.a. Spagod, Supreme Ruler of Spas, etc...)
vs. the world. With all the turmoil in the world today it is good to know some things
never change. Speaking of current events, with all of your paranoia and feelings of being
superior to everyone else you remind me of someone that's in the news a lot lately. Are
you sure your name is James and not really Saddam. Maybe you two can get together and
start a "Poor picked on me when I did nothing to deserve it" support group for
evil wanna be dictators. Maybe not, you must still be very busy selling lots of spas Jim
as I can see you you have been too busy to post.lol If I had an employee playing around on
the internet as much as you I would have to fire him. Do you ever sell a spa in between
posting? How is that carpal tunnel? I hope you have one of those ergonomic keyboards, you
know the ones that are "engineered" almost as much as one of your spas. then
again nothing could be made that well. Don't worry Jim you will put those big company spa
makers out of business any day now.
DMT
Topic: Continuitn the Rebuttal with the phoney engineer.
From: Spa Fellow
Date: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 12:12 AM
Thanks that was funny.
Actually I do a lot to "deserve it." As long as it gets people to think,I feel
it is worth it to be constantly hated by the spa industry.
It is really good to see you here again. I like you humor and how far off your image of me
is. I worked hard to get you so pissed off. What did it take about five emails and you
lost your cork?
It makes people listen. It makes people go to my site. It helps to unveil the spa
industry.
I don't care much how I get folks to wake up as long as they get mad enough to do
something about it.
It is good to "see" you again.
Check out the reaction to that phoney engineer set of posts. That is some good work. James
Arjuna
Topic: James, you ought to be careful with 'the phoney engineer' thing!.
From: Angel of Truth
Date: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 12:19 AM
It may haunt you!
A. O. T.
The Truth About Haven Spas
Topic: James, you ought to be careful with 'the phoney engineer' thing!.
From: Spa Fellow
Date: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 12:36 AM
Just look at how many people have read it. It has not even been up but one day.
It is some of my best work. My work to get people to think. Think about the crap this
industry does. The used car sales crap that I constantly hear about. The sleazy guys with
no morals taking your hard earned money and giving you little in return.
All of you need to see the truth in what is going on in my humor.
This industry is sick.
James Arjuna
Topic: Read your web site today, James
From: Spa_Design_Engineer
Date: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 11:38 AM
Can you answer engineering questions here regarding your designs? Would it be better if I
asked directly to the engineers that design the various parts of your portable spas?
I would rather use an unregulated forum than one under a biased control. Please do not
take this the wrong way. I simply like this format here better than yours and I like
seeing instant results.
Vízépítéstan - hydraulic architecture
Topic: Continuitn the Rebuttal with the phoney engineer.
From: Smitty2
Date: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 10:23 PM
James, I am still waiting for your reply to my comments about the Royal spa I own and its
its outdated controls. Smitty
Topic: Continuitn the Rebuttal with the phoney engineer.
From: Spa Fellow
Date: Friday, September 20, 2002 06:56 PM
I am glad that you are shocked. You need to be shocked. Shocked out of the idea that the
spa industry is regulated of even has ethics.
You need to take a lot of time and digest what is being said.
James Arjuna
Topic: PAY CLOSE ATTENTION SHOPPERS
From: Spa Fellow
Date: Saturday, September 21, 2002 01:57 AM
On 9/17/2002 4:30:12 PM, DawnR wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Being new to this forum I just
>wanted to say I was shocked
>and saddened to see James
>Arjuna's reply to a very
>intelligent post. My husband
>and I are thinking about
>getting a spa so I have been
>poking around trying to find
>information. What I find is as
>someone else said a vulgar,
>insulting, misdirecting reply
>to a valid post. What scares
>me most is that as a
>psychologist I can tell you
>James Arjuna's replies deeply
>reflect psychotic paranoia.
>This scares me deeply and I
>would highly advise this man
>to seek psychological help as
>quickly as possiable. We would
>never consider buying his spas
>based on this post, and I
>haven't even done the research
>the originator suggested!
>
DawnR
Email Address:
Location:
Home Page:
First Login: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 04:21 PM
Last Login: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 04:21 PM
Total Logins: 1
Msgs Posted: 1
User Id: 10093
Isn't if funny that this was the only log in and the only post????
The log in was at 4:21 and the post was at 4:30.
That gave "her" exactly 9 minutes to read all the information, that takes about
three hours to go through.
Do you see how these slick hot tub guys work?
This person is fictitious as well.
James Arjuna
Topic: Continuitn the Rebuttal with the phoney engineer.
From: Spa Fellow
Date: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 12:23 AM
On 9/17/2002 6:43:19 AM, Anonymous wrote:
>Wow James talk about proven someone's
>point! By replying to the originators
>post which in my opinion was very
>polite, thoughtful and verifiable by a
>well educated person. Your reply's are
>insulting, misdirecting, and the
>originator forgot to mention your new
>sales tactic which is lets scare
>everyone about the safety of spas. Point
>us to one independent study that proves
>people were injured by any major
>manufactures spa? The bottom line here
>James is that a well educated consumer
>caught you with your pants down and then
>you help him/her prove their point.
>Another brilliant piece of work by James
>Arjuna (PHD} BS University for poor
>desperate con men. Do you really think
>that a well educated person such as who
>wrote this post is going to go over to
>your forum and debate you there where
>you totally control and moderate
>everything? As he/she stated your
>reply's prove your uneducated and not
>even in their league. But I do want to
>thank you for laughs you just gave me. I
>haven't seen so much BS from you in a
>long time. Once again the world famous
>James Arjuna proves his desperation and
>ignorance for the world to see!
>
Ever hear of Phil Hendry???
Only I don't have to create these characters. They just show up all buy themselves.
James Arjuna
Topic: Terrorist Alert! AKA James Arjuna (JA)
From: DavidO
Date: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 09:01 AM
This is a public announcement to warn the public about the terrorist JA. In his secret
hide out http://havenspas.tripod.com he secretly plans the take over the entire spa
industry. He uses tactics like lies, deception, insults, vulgar language, and lets scare
the customer, and when he gets caught by intelligent people he squirms his way out of it
by trying to cover it up saying it was only humor! Mean while the major spa corporations
are so scared they are quaking in their boots and it has been reported that a family
member of Hot Springs has been in secret negotiations with JA so as to save their very
profitable multi million dollar company from this terrorist with very limited financial
funding and intelligence. In fact finances are so bad because he can't find anyone dumb
enough to buy one of his spas. So he spends his entire day and night posting on the
internet hoping to prey upon that one stupid victim. In order to support his internet
habit JA has to send his wife out onto the streets of Colorado to hook in order to support
his internet habit. It has been reported that JA has a new secret weapon that he plans to
launch against the spa industry called DAIT which is an acromyn for (Dumb Ass Idiot Test).
In other words if you believe this mans lies and your dumb enough to buy one of his spas
your the biggest dumb ass on the planet! Yes people this was an attempt at humor, however
very sadly it also tells the truth. I may be new here but I know BS when I see it! Its a
good thing I don't live anywhere near Colorado or else I would slap a restraining order on
this clearly mentally unstable individual from coming near my wife or kids! Now since I
have the day off I'm going to get into my Sundance Optima and relax. Oh, I almost forgot
since no one has congratulated the originator of this post for buying his new Artesian spa
I will. Congratulations and enjoy it you made a good decision. You were perfectly correct
in your reasoning about Haven spas as demonstrated by JA since only a man caught in as
many lies as he was, would respond in this manner.
Regards,
David
Topic: Terrorist Alert! AKA James Arjuna (JA)
From: Anonymous ()
Date: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 10:34 AM
Thank you David for the very amusing post! Unfortunately as you stated there is a lot of
truth here. James finally realized that he was stupid enough to post his reply's and show
the world how full of lies, uneducated and mentally unstable he really is. Now he is
trying to dismiss the whole thing off as humor and trying to educate the public! To late
James you just blew yourself and your business up! I also want to congratulate the
original poster on buying a fine spa like the Artesian Piper Glen. Enjoy it and best
wishes to you. By the way isn't Arjuna a middleastern last name. Hmmm I wonder....
Topic: Terrorist Alert! AKA James Arjuna (JA)
From: Anonymous ()
Date: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 07:24 PM
Be very careful Jim's big dumb ass brother, the one with the engineering degree from a
coraspondance school who got a 100k contract job in this economy, will bring their cheap
illegal imagrent help from the broken down hideout/factory and bore you to death with
their lies and stories! Or even worse they may even give you one of their poorly designed
spas! This is pretty funny, the guy who originated this post nuked Jim on the first try
without even trying! Someone please save Jim's replys so we can post them elsewhere! Jim
kiss your ass good bye because you have just been blown away! Find yourself a real job
because your going to need it after this thread! Maybe you can find work in Afganistan! By
the way the engineer was right Jim's site does talk about brake horsepower, and only 2
filters in his specifications! I wonder why we never caught this one before! But it
doesn't matter now since Jim is finished here.
Adios Amigo!
Topic: Terrorist Alert! AKA James Arjuna (JA)
From: Anonymous ()
Date: Thursday, September 19, 2002 10:05 AM
Be careful Jimbo may start a file on you! He has files on everyone that doesn't feel he is
a spa god. He has nothing better to do with his time since he can't sell his crappy spas
but collect posts off the internet. Talk about being sick! He may even throw all five of
his text books at you!
But then he can't even read or possibly understand those books anyway so no great loss.
Also Jimbo in case you didn't catch it the engineer said he had advanced degrees for your
uneducated ass that means a Masters or a doctorate! You now this whole Joke about Jimbo
being a terrorist has me thinking. Since he mentioned that Phoenix has access to cheap
labor and in that part of the country we all know what that means, maybe someone should
drop a call to the INS to investigate? While we are talking about making calls and since
Jim mentions in other posts his brother is part of Haven spas business maybe someone
should call the IRS hotline and lets have his books checked since his brother got a 100k
contract in todays economic climate? Since we all know Jimbo is a liar, con artist, and
specializes in consumer fraud I bet his books aren't too clean either. Buy the way Jimbo
when you pray do happen to face Mecca?
Topic: EVER NOTICE?? (47 of 50),
From: Spa Fellow
Date: Friday, September 20, 2002 12:56 PM
How these cowards, professionals in the spa industry, whom I have exposed, when they are
out of "ammunition" will resort to character attacks that have no basis in
reality?
Do you really know what my religion is?
It is considered the lowest of the low to attack someone based upon their belief in God.
I believe that we fought a war to stop religious persecution, in the 1700's.
I believe that we continue to fight wars to keep our freedoms.
I go to Sunday meetings, but you will never see me tell anybody what religion, because it
doesn't pertain to these boards.
I also believe in God's laws. Like the 10 big ones that seem to be ignored by spa
professionals on these boards.
James Arjuna
Topic: .................... this Just In!
.......................................
From: National Puddin' Watch
Date: Friday, September 20, 2002 01:10 PM
Sham Rage – In 1928, Phillip Bard performed a series of experiments demonstrating
that the hypothalamus serves as a critical center for coordinating the autonomic and
somatic components of emotional behavior. Bard removed both cerebral hemispheres in
Puddin’ and found that he exhibited all the characteristics of being extremely angry,
even though there was no external stimulus to trigger such a reaction. He called this
constellation of behaviors sham rage. In consists it consists of:
increased blood pressure and heart rate
dilation of the pupils
erection of the hairs on the back and neck
arching of the back
lashing the tail (you didn’t know?)
snarling
Sham rage remained intact as long as the hypothalamus was preserved. In a later series of
experiments, Walter Hess demonstrated that electrical stimulation of discrete locations of
the hypothalamus could evoke sham rage, while stimulation of other sites could evoke fear
reactions. These reactions are conveyed from the hypothalamus to the brain stem reticular
systems that regulate autonomic activity (cardiovascular, blood pressure, respiration,
urination, vomiting, swallowing etc ..)
Topic: EVER NOTICE??
From: Anonymous ()
Date: Friday, September 20, 2002 10:36 PM
James look in front of you you see that flash of light and the mushroom cloud? In case
your too stupid to realize it you finished yourself off with this post. You have lost all
credablity on this board. No one is ever going to pay any attention to you again. No one
ran out of ammunition someone just stuck a nuke up your ass and being the dumb ass you are
you pushed the button!
Topic: 21 Reasons Why I Would Never Buy a Haven/Phoenix Spa
From: Pete1
Date: Saturday, September 21, 2002 10:45 AM
Hello - A "certain person that shall remain nameless" has tried to bury this
post so, I thought it would be nice to see it at the top again. Thats until he tries to
bury it again. Below is a re-post from Anonymous. Read it and make your own decisions.
Seems very logical and knowledgeable to me.
"Hi Folks,
As a person who has found these forums useful and having been on a 5 month journey of
finding a new spa to replace my old 10 year old spa I thought I would share some of my
thoughts and feelings as an engineer with graduate degrees from MIT in Electrical
Engineering and Applied Physics. I have been following the thread titled " You have
Got to be kidding!" to be very interesting which I would suggest everyone read first.
In response to this thread here are the reasons why I would personally never buy a
Haven/Phoenix spa. I can only hope this helps out someone and they understand the logic
involved and why I agree with originator of the above mentioned thread, about Mr. Arjuna
being nothing more than a desperate salesman.
1) As one person mentioned in the thread check Mr. Arjuna's old posts. In researching the
old posts you can truly see his true character as aperson who will say or doing anything
to sell his spas and as Angeloftruth
recently pointed out in the thread his story isn't consistent and varies constantly.
2) In his posts he uses the tactic of trying to scare customers by saying usually one of
the following things.
a. The spa is full foam and will freeze if GFI fails and your away.
b. The shell will crack.
c. Full foam costs a fortune to fix a leak.
d. The plumbing is bad and users diverter valves.
e. I have never heard good things about that spa.
The reality of the situation is as follows. All major spa companies use full foam because
it has solid science behind it and is proven in the field. In a quick search of over 78
engineering and physics databases I could only find one article back in 1978 at Cal Tech
that did a study of electrical motors in a thermal enclosure. Bottom-line this is like
comparing apples to oranges and as some in the original thread mentioned it is pseudo
science. Use your common sense if you were building a house and one contractor came to you
and said I'm going to put a thin piece of foil on the inside of your walls instead of 6
inches of installation would you let him? You would tell him where to go and rightfully
so. During my search of the engineering databases there are many articles supporting the
use of full foam as an insulating, soundproofing, and to some extent as an adjutant
structural support. I live up in the Northeast and my old spa is full foam 10 years old
and never froze once nor leaked. Talking with spa repair folk in the Northeast a spa
freezing is a rare occurrence a maybe 1 in 4000 shot, so you should not make this a
consideration in purchasing a spa. Even more interesting was the spa that froze that he
had worked on
was an L.A. with the thermal design and the customer hadn't opted for the full foam
optio